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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-10-02 16:24:16 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Hello CCP Rise,

Thank you for this AWESOME line of ships. However, there are some minor things that seem to ... not play out as you hope to.
For example, you state that they will support


CCP Rise wrote:

  • Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often


  • Which is pretty cool imo, since this isn't the Ammarrian approach on drones (If we have drones, we either have missiles or don't use any other weapon system at all).
    However, the bonuses you worked out don't favor the use of lasers. For example the Astero. You're giving it 2 Hardpoints, while at the same time, only 2 highslots. So if people decide to fly it into combat, they most likely would use the cov ops cloak, too, leaving the ship with one turret to use - which then isn't even bonused to use lasers.
    For the Stratios you grant a Role Bonus for a 50% reduction in capacitor use, but that's it again, there's no other bonus for lasers. So why would anyone use lasers here over, let's say Blasters since they're going to be able to sneak up close, or autocannons so they can choose the damage they want do deal?

    If i were to emphasize their use onto lasers and drones, i would probably reduce the hardpoints, like Sansha and Bloodraider have, while giving them a similar rolebonus on their damage. This forces them into lasers, while granting a cap-bonus the same time.


    Next up, the damage potential of an Astero. You'll have 5 drones + 1, maybe 2 unbonused turrets - if you give up on the cloak. This leaves you with ~100 dps from a flight of hobgoblins + 1/2 unbonused turrets, so i think people will be able to top out at ~200 dps in a ganky setup. Which is pretty, ... let's say, average. Because for this you sacrifice a lot of the ship's role. A Firetail, a navy frig (which can't covops cloak to be fair), can do some 160-170 dps in a relative tanky setup. Keep in mind that the Comet and Slicer can top this with relative ease, and maybe you start, like me, feeling that it might pack SOME more punch.

    I would for example suggest a reduced bandwidth with a rolebonus on drone damage. The Maulus or Crucifier for example have 4 respecitvely 3 drones.
    For the Asteros i would suggest a rolebonus of 100% towards Drone damage, Repair amount and E-War strength (maybe not for ECM) (and maybe some Access Difficulty Bonus for salvage drones?), while giving it 15 Mbit bandwidth and 60m³ bay.
    This would allow it to run with 6 effective drones while giving it a good bay to support a huge variety of drones. It would also improve the ship's performance with very rarely used (cause ineffective) drones like Stasis Webbers.

    I would also consider moving it from 2/4/4 to 3/3/4, but then again this would cripple a lot of the exploration stuff this ship is also meant to do.






    And just running some experiments with the Stratios right now:

    The CPU is Enough. There is no need to buff it. I'm currently having something like the following:

    [Stratios, Test test]
    Damage Control II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Medium Armor Repairer II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II

    10MN Afterburner II
    Warp Scrambler II
    Stasis Webifier II
    Stasis Webifier II
    Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

    425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
    425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
    425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
    425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
    Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

    Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
    Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

    Ogre II x5



    Raw Armor: 3000
    Resistance Profile (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 74,5 / 66,8 / 61,7 / 70,2
    Active Tank: ~ 180 dps
    Damage Output: 850 DPS
    CPU Used: 475/500
    Powergrid used: 993,54 / 1150


    If i go with heavy neutrons i end up with 499/500 CPU and still ~100 free Powergrid and 900 raw dps.

    Let's be honest: Remove the lousy 'Capuse Bonus' and give it 100% reduced locking delay after decloaking Pirate







    Funnya s you testes AC and blasters and ignored the LASER. Specially at a REASONABLE range. Only the most innocent look at raw DPS numbers and think they mean something. Check damage on each 3 weapon systems at 20 km ( near edge of tackle range)

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #82 - 2013-10-02 16:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Hosedna wrote:
    Funny, I was expecting something more faction neutral, like the Gnosis, where you can choose pretty much what weapons system you want. Could've been interesting. And since there is no role bonus anyway on dmg or projection, most people will end up fitting autocannons ! So ... What about removing the laser capa bonus, and replacing it either by a bonus for each weapon system (and add 2 missiles points), or replacing it by another exploration bonus, and letting us choose our weapons ?



    always amazes me how people liek to fit the weakest weapon system on this condition. AC have less dps than ANY weapon system, that is because minmatar ships have the ROF bonuses (strogner than damage ones). Lasers and blasters are far stronger when unbonused.

    It is because autocannons don't use any cap.



    And that becomes relevenat only if your ship will get short on cap. With cap usage bonus lasers are not that hungry capwise, so that if this ship has good capacitor bank the non cap usage become moot. I prefer to kil lmy enemy faster with superior weapons > if you have half the dps in the AC you will end up using MORE cap at the fight (becausse of the other modules)

    This ship with cap usage bonus will end up using 6 cap per second with MF.. if your fight extends more because of lousy dps and you need to cycle your MWD one more time then you end up using MORE cap on the AC boat ( unbonused)

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #83 - 2013-10-02 16:26:43 UTC

    I'm comparing the Stratios to a N.Vexor

    Quote:
    Stratios

    Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
    Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
    Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

    Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

    Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
    4% bonus to Armor Resists

    Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
    10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

    Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
    Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
    Capacitor (amount) : 1700
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
    Sensor strength: 20
    Signature radius: 150
    Cargo Capacity: 550


    Quote:
    Vexor Navy Issue: 5 heavy drones make this a very exciting ship, at the expense of almost all the gun damage. Flies like a modified Ishtar or Gila, sacrificing resists and dronebay for easier damage application.
    Cruiser skill bonuses:
    5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking
    10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
    Slot layout: 4 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 6 L, 2(-3) turrets
    Fittings: 800 PWG(+100), 310(+10) CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-635) / 3000(+539) / 3000(+187)
    Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-550)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+40) / 0.44(-0.106) / 11310000(+400,000) / 6.9s(-1.36)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 200(+100)
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 285(+9) / 7(+1)
    Sensor strength: 20(+3) Magnetometric
    Signature radius: 135
    Cargo capacity: 460(+195)


    Both have 10% drone HP and Damage
    Both have same base resist profile.

    Stratios has larger drone bay
    Stratios has a larger Cargo Bay.
    Stratios can utilize covert cloaks.
    Stratios has better fittings.
    Stratios has better capacitor.
    Stratios gets role bonuses to Exploration (Scanning, Hacking, Analyzing)
    Stratios has a 4%/level to Armor resists compared to a 5% drone velocity and tracking bonus.
    Stratios has one less low, for an extra low and an extra high.

    NVexor gets 25% more armor and hull.
    NVexor has 25% faster base speed, but unsure how it will compare in mwd velocity.


    TBH, doesn't this new ship pretty much obsolete the Navy Vexor?
    SKINE DMZ
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #84 - 2013-10-02 16:28:31 UTC
    Would like to see increased virus strength, has been mentioned a few times in this thread yet developers keep ignoring it, take some time to answer it please.

    I disagree

    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #85 - 2013-10-02 16:29:50 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    I'm comparing the Stratios to a N.Vexor

    Quote:
    Stratios

    Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
    Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
    Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

    Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

    Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
    4% bonus to Armor Resists

    Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
    10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

    Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
    Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
    Capacitor (amount) : 1700
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
    Sensor strength: 20
    Signature radius: 150
    Cargo Capacity: 550


    Quote:
    Vexor Navy Issue: 5 heavy drones make this a very exciting ship, at the expense of almost all the gun damage. Flies like a modified Ishtar or Gila, sacrificing resists and dronebay for easier damage application.
    Cruiser skill bonuses:
    5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking
    10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
    Slot layout: 4 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 6 L, 2(-3) turrets
    Fittings: 800 PWG(+100), 310(+10) CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-635) / 3000(+539) / 3000(+187)
    Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-550)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+40) / 0.44(-0.106) / 11310000(+400,000) / 6.9s(-1.36)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 200(+100)
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 285(+9) / 7(+1)
    Sensor strength: 20(+3) Magnetometric
    Signature radius: 135
    Cargo capacity: 460(+195)


    Both have 10% drone HP and Damage
    Both have same base resist profile.

    Stratios has larger drone bay
    Stratios has a larger Cargo Bay.
    Stratios can utilize covert cloaks.
    Stratios has better fittings.
    Stratios has better capacitor.
    Stratios gets role bonuses to Exploration (Scanning, Hacking, Analyzing)
    Stratios has a 4%/level to Armor resists compared to a 5% drone velocity and tracking bonus.
    Stratios has one less low, for an extra low and an extra high.

    NVexor gets 25% more armor and hull.
    NVexor has 25% faster base speed, but unsure how it will compare in mwd velocity.


    TBH, doesn't this new ship pretty much obsolete the Navy Vexor?



    navy vexor will stil be faster in MWD, although not by 25%.

    I wil answer you with aht. THis cruiser will sell for at LEAST 600M isk

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    Darenthul
    Anstard Armory Inc.
    #86 - 2013-10-02 16:31:46 UTC
    Damn was kinda hoping these ships would have two internal tractor beams so you could nab two canisters at once while popping relics/data.

    "I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker

    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #87 - 2013-10-02 16:32:08 UTC
    So you geniuses at CCP who just wiped out T3's going into 3/10's and 4/10's, now have created the ship that will fill that role precisely. The highly skilled players, the same ones that used the T3's, will just switch over to this.

    Guess you realized how badly you screwed up when you wrecked the T3's by limiting their exploration capabilities.
    Eko Fromtv
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #88 - 2013-10-02 16:32:10 UTC
    Thank you CCP \o/

    I forgive any and all of your previous mistakes. Stratios is the ship I have been waiting for.

    Maybe add some lazor damage bonuses :)

    Please keep the colour scheme as is.



    WTB: Stratios 400mil

    (Ice) Miner for life.

    WInter Borne
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #89 - 2013-10-02 16:33:33 UTC
    Sexy
    Xequecal
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #90 - 2013-10-02 16:34:39 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    I'm comparing the Stratios to a N.Vexor

    Quote:
    Stratios

    Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
    Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
    Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

    Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

    Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
    4% bonus to Armor Resists

    Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
    10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

    Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
    Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
    Capacitor (amount) : 1700
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
    Sensor strength: 20
    Signature radius: 150
    Cargo Capacity: 550


    Quote:
    Vexor Navy Issue: 5 heavy drones make this a very exciting ship, at the expense of almost all the gun damage. Flies like a modified Ishtar or Gila, sacrificing resists and dronebay for easier damage application.
    Cruiser skill bonuses:
    5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking
    10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
    Slot layout: 4 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 6 L, 2(-3) turrets
    Fittings: 800 PWG(+100), 310(+10) CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-635) / 3000(+539) / 3000(+187)
    Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-550)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+40) / 0.44(-0.106) / 11310000(+400,000) / 6.9s(-1.36)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 200(+100)
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 285(+9) / 7(+1)
    Sensor strength: 20(+3) Magnetometric
    Signature radius: 135
    Cargo capacity: 460(+195)


    Both have 10% drone HP and Damage
    Both have same base resist profile.

    Stratios has larger drone bay
    Stratios has a larger Cargo Bay.
    Stratios can utilize covert cloaks.
    Stratios has better fittings.
    Stratios has better capacitor.
    Stratios gets role bonuses to Exploration (Scanning, Hacking, Analyzing)
    Stratios has a 4%/level to Armor resists compared to a 5% drone velocity and tracking bonus.
    Stratios has one less low, for an extra low and an extra high.

    NVexor gets 25% more armor and hull.
    NVexor has 25% faster base speed, but unsure how it will compare in mwd velocity.


    TBH, doesn't this new ship pretty much obsolete the Navy Vexor?


    The only source of this ship will be LP from null sec missions. You can't get bpcs for them from exploration or plexes. SoE agents will be hell camped to an absurd degree by gankers, this ship is going to be absurdly expensive. Seriously, 5 bonuses heavies and 5 guns on a covops cruiser? It's more DPS than a covops blaster Proteus and it doesn't need to be at point blank range.

    I'm guessing 500m price tag for the hull minimum.
    Bagehi
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #91 - 2013-10-02 16:34:43 UTC
    What is this madness? Tanked, cloaky, drone boats? SOE don't have enough agents to handle the demand for these ships.
    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #92 - 2013-10-02 16:35:01 UTC
    I'm legitimately impressed; these ships appear to have a multitude of uses without stepping on the role of more specialized ships (ie not probing better than a covert ops frigate).

    +1
    Two step
    Aperture Harmonics
    #93 - 2013-10-02 16:35:19 UTC
    Capacitor recharge time?

    CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    #94 - 2013-10-02 16:36:02 UTC
    Can we get the cap role bonus on the Stratios changed to a targeting delay reduction? It is a pretty useless role bonus.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #95 - 2013-10-02 16:36:54 UTC
    Xequecal wrote:

    The only source of this ship will be LP from null sec missions.


    There are SoE agents in highsec
    Akrasjel Lanate
    Lanate Industries
    #96 - 2013-10-02 16:37:20 UTC
    Destoya wrote:
    What are the LP prices for these?

    Logic would say same like for other "pirate" ships P

    CEO of Lanate Industries

    Citizen of Solitude

    Syrias Bizniz
    some random local shitlords
    #97 - 2013-10-02 16:37:34 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:
    blablabla


    Funnya s you testes AC and blasters and ignored the LASER. Specially at a REASONABLE range. Only the most innocent look at raw DPS numbers and think they mean something. Check damage on each 3 weapon systems at 20 km ( near edge of tackle range)



    Let's be honest: A 250mm Railgun has the same powergrid need as a heavy pulse lasers, while requiring more CPU, and will outdps it at scorch range while loading STANDARD ANTIMATTER, and will Outdps at IMPERIAL NAVY Multifreq Range (i know, same range as t1, but just for using faction ammo here) while using javelin.
    And with the Capacitor Rolebonus, both weapon systems will need the same cap/s.

    If i decide to go for Beam lasers now, ... the Railgun is roughly equal in dps and range, with worse tracking.

    You're either far enough out so that tracking isn't an issue, or up close enough to use webs.
    And if you decide to go up close with the ship, why go for lasers? Autocannons provide better tracking, choosable damagetypes and don't cost cap.


    THAT'S why i used autocannons and blasters in my setup. Because without a dmg bonus, lasers suck.
    Delois Lunar
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #98 - 2013-10-02 16:37:59 UTC
    Since they can fit cov op cloaks, any chance they will be able to fit cov op cynos?
    Eternal Curiousity
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #99 - 2013-10-02 16:38:17 UTC
    So...Ammar/Gallente skills? No love for Minmatar or Caldari? Sad
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #100 - 2013-10-02 16:39:04 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    I prefer to kil lmy enemy faster with superior weapons > if you have half the dps in the AC you will end up using MORE cap at the fight (becausse of the other modules)


    Unbonused laser DPS is nice. Until you're shooting into their highest resist and doing nothing because you can't actually select the damage you're doing to them.