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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Large Collidable Object
morons.
#661 - 2013-10-03 23:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Giving the ship 100% laser bonus completely defeats the reason to remove 2 turret hardpoints, with 4 turrets worth of damage it gets too high of DPS.




It probably is the only way to force lasers on this hull. With four turrets worth of damage, it would compensate for pulses higher fitting requirements, their high cap use and their bad tracking at the short ranges this hull would be suited for, given its slow speed and huge sig radius.

I'm fine with keeping more hardpoints and some irrelevant laser bonus - I'll just fit Blasters or ACs and be happy with that.

That is íf they want to force the ship to match its description it needs to specialize in lasers in a way that overcomes all their shortcomings on a hull that would typically start to engage at 2000 m or less.

Considering the optimal range bonus - that doesn't make any sense at all - lasers wont be unviable on this ship for their optimal range. It's nonsensically high without any bonus at all - if anything this ship needs a laser tracking bonus that lets conflag pulses outperform blasters at 2000 m in terms of damage application, fitting requirements, cap use and damage types.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2013-10-03 23:35:13 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Giving the ship 100% laser bonus completely defeats the reason to remove 2 turret hardpoints, with 4 turrets worth of damage it gets too high of DPS.




It probably is the only way to force lasers on this hull. With four turrets worth of damage, it would compensate for pulses higher fitting requirements, their high cap use and their bad tracking at the short ranges this hull would be suited for, giben its slow speed and huge sig radius).

I'm fine with keeping more hardpoints and some irrelevant laser bonus - I'll just fit Blasters or ACs and be happy with that.

If they want to force the ship to match its description it needs to specialize in lasers in a way that overcomes all their shortcomings on a hull that would typically start to engage at 2000 m or less.

That is true, but to give it 100% laser damage bonus to force it to use lasers also gives it 1-2 utility highs and that can make it even more deadly.

4 lasers worth of damage, 2 neuts and a covert ops cloak, along with full drone DPS. I would rather face off with the lol shield gank fit.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#663 - 2013-10-03 23:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Or, or, or... We get rid of the drone damage bonus. Now, I know what you are thinking, crazy right? .

This ship is as much a laser ship as the gila is a missile ship. CCP Rise suggested that the Gila (and I am assuming by association all Guristas ships) are no longer going to be drone ships.

There is a laser pirate ship, there is a projectile pirate ship, there is a hybrid pirate ship, maybe the new Guristas ships will be missile pirate ships, that leaves a drone pirate ship which low and behold SOE is a drone focused ship.

CCP Rise wrote:

We're supporting that model with things like:
Covert cloaks
Exploration role bonuses
Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often
Extremely high ship agility

I see nothing wrong in removing the Drone damage bonus, but giving it a tracking/hp/speed bonus to bring its damage more in line with what a cruiser hull should sit at. Currently they have a Drone weapon system with lasers that might as well not exist given the current bonuses. I doubt even an Optimal bonus would make someone want to use Lasers over another weapon type just because of the hoops you need to jump through to make them worthwhile. They clearly want a drone/laser boat and one that does 90% of its damage through drones can not in any way be called anything but a pure drone boat. I could throw Lasers on a Domi, but that would not make it a mixed weapon ship.

So, by shifting the damage away from the Drones (while still giving them bonuses) and towards Lasers will accomplish this goal. What I am seeing on a lot of these suggestions are things that make me think people don't actually want what CCP is trying to sell them. They want a Cloaky Ishtar. I can respect wanting a cloaky Ishtar, but unless CCP comes out and says "Yeah, we are just going to make it a covert drone boat" I will continue assuming that suggestions should be aimed at making it a viable dual-weapon system ship.

I mean dear god, it would still output 600ish dps with only two damage mods (1 DDA, 1HS). It's not like removing the drone damage bonus will make this thing suddenly obsolete.
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#664 - 2013-10-03 23:40:43 UTC
If you drop the CPU down as suggested above it could get a role bonus along the lines of 25% reduction to CPU of all "Scanning Equipment". This category covers all of the probe launchers, analyzers and scanning upgrades. It emphasizes the exploration role whilst making other fits possible with sufficient sacrifices.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#665 - 2013-10-03 23:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Interesting thought, following on from that why not build the scanning probe launcher into the ship?
Non removeable and cpu and power accordingly,
Absolutely prevents it suffering from being turned into a gank fit?
Before you say CCP Don't build things in, ships have an engine, industrials have cargo bays,etc etc.
Exploration ships have a core probe launcher or else they are not exploration ships?

It also leaves a role for covert ops as they can fit the expanded launcher to hunt down ships for the fleet to kill.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#666 - 2013-10-03 23:46:40 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Giving the ship 100% laser bonus completely defeats the reason to remove 2 turret hardpoints, with 4 turrets worth of damage it gets too high of DPS.




It probably is the only way to force lasers on this hull. With four turrets worth of damage, it would compensate for pulses higher fitting requirements, their high cap use and their bad tracking at the short ranges this hull would be suited for, given its slow speed and huge sig radius.

I'm fine with keeping more hardpoints and some irrelevant laser bonus - I'll just fit Blasters or ACs and be happy with that.

If they want to force the ship to match its description it needs to specialize in lasers in a way that overcomes all their shortcomings on a hull that would typically start to engage at 2000 m or less.

Considering the optimal range bonus - that doesn't make any sense at all - lasers wont be unviable on this ship for their optimal range. It's nonsensically high without any bonus at all - if anything this ship needs a laser tracking bonus that lets conflag pulses outperform blasters at 2000 m in terms of damage application, fitting requirements, cap use and damage types.



I think this would be the best possible change. Remove 2 hardpoints, add a 100% laser damage bonus.

What this does:
>> Removes OP neutron fits
>> Gears ship more towards exploration rather than PvP
>> Makes using longer-range drones viable
>> Makes speed tanking / kiting more viable
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#667 - 2013-10-03 23:54:19 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That is true, but to give it 100% laser damage bonus to force it to use lasers also gives it 1-2 utility highs and that can make it even more deadly.

4 lasers worth of damage, 2 neuts and a covert ops cloak, along with full drone DPS. I would rather face off with the lol shield gank fit.



Well - then have them remove high slots - there is no other way to force lasers on this ship but the 100% bonus/limited hardpoint approach as there is not a single more counter-intuitive cruiser-sized weapon system than lasers for this hull (except heavy missiles, probably).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2013-10-03 23:56:30 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Giving the ship 100% laser bonus completely defeats the reason to remove 2 turret hardpoints, with 4 turrets worth of damage it gets too high of DPS.




It probably is the only way to force lasers on this hull. With four turrets worth of damage, it would compensate for pulses higher fitting requirements, their high cap use and their bad tracking at the short ranges this hull would be suited for, given its slow speed and huge sig radius.

I'm fine with keeping more hardpoints and some irrelevant laser bonus - I'll just fit Blasters or ACs and be happy with that.

If they want to force the ship to match its description it needs to specialize in lasers in a way that overcomes all their shortcomings on a hull that would typically start to engage at 2000 m or less.

Considering the optimal range bonus - that doesn't make any sense at all - lasers wont be unviable on this ship for their optimal range. It's nonsensically high without any bonus at all - if anything this ship needs a laser tracking bonus that lets conflag pulses outperform blasters at 2000 m in terms of damage application, fitting requirements, cap use and damage types.



I think this would be the best possible change. Remove 2 hardpoints, add a 100% laser damage bonus.

What this does:
>> Removes OP neutron fits
>> Gears ship more towards exploration rather than PvP
>> Makes using longer-range drones viable
>> Makes speed tanking / kiting more viable


Thanks for the utility high slots

[Stratios, Test] Needs 3% CPU implant
1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device
2x Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
2x Heavy Pulse Laser II (Conflagration M)

10MN Afterburner II
2x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II

Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#669 - 2013-10-04 00:01:56 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
[snip]

5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.
"B-but you used Ogres... It's only theoretical dps." - Naysayers.
Gabriel Locke
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#670 - 2013-10-04 00:03:57 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Since I have nothing better to do than make psuedo fits for this ship since I don't have an EFT file for it. Have an Armor fit. Results of the tank were used via simulation off a Maller hull, which has the same bonuses but 100 less base armor. So roughly the same. We went with lasers since people were bitching at how "impractical" blasters are on a CLOAKY SHIP THAT CAN DICTATE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT RANGE.

[SoE Cruiser Armor]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Stasis Webifier II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
10mn Afterburner II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x5

1177/1184.5 PG (3% implant needed)
498/500 CPU

Note - I dual propped it because it is possible and some people are into that sort of thing. You can drop the AB and no longer need a 3% PG implant or throw on a 1600mm II (which is about 2k more ehp). You will need a CPU implant for most other mid slot EWAR effects that go above 27 cpu. Another Balmer TD will require a 1% CPU for example.

Highlights.
DPS with the following: Overheats in ()
Conflag - 862(886), 6.8+3.8km
Imp. Navy - 845(867), 6.8+3.8km
Scorch - 816(833), 20+3.8km

EHP (Maller Base) 40,508. Likely about 42k with that extra 100 base. For added fun use Slaves and get 99k EHP (102k with T2 plate). Since this will likely see most of its use in low-sec I don't see why not to use slaves.

Speed - I am again just ballparking, it has less mass than a Nomen, but rather poor base speed. So probably, 1600m/s MWD speed give or take, 400-450m/s AB. Doubtful its cap stable with everything running, but with a Scram and a Web you can shut off the MWD when you get close and not give a damn.

===============================================

And another! Because people are going to want to fly this at max disruption range for some reason. It is painful to fly a drone boat like this, especially one that would rely on heavies, but here have a fit.

[SoE Cruiser Maximum Doritos Edition]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

Berserker II x5
512/515 CPU (Needs 3%)
892/1150 PG (We got lots of space)

Dps = 684(702) w/ Scorch at 20km+3.8.
Tank, Again Maller base = 16,359 EHP, 352 omnitank with AAR. Almost definitely cap stable with the booster running, cap probably lasts ~3 minutes without it. Ballpark guesses without the regen stats.
Speed = Take previous speed, add about 200m/s with the removal of the plate.

Berserkers will be flying around at 2048 m/s which is enough to catch most cruisers. Otherwise drop down to Hammerheads and do 465 dps.

==============================

Finally, I figured that this could make for a rather funny Sentry Sniper Boat...

[SoE Cruiser, Dew the Dew Edition]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II


Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Bouncer II x5

Dps is 657 with Bouncers (60+42km). 573 with Wardens (75+30km). Lock Range goes out past 100 or so.
EHP is 24k. Enough to survive the Alpha of 2-3 sniper fit ships.
Zoom zoom around at ~2500m/s. Laugh at your sub 3 second align time.

I tried to get a fit that used turrets, but to do so would mean dropping the Nanofiber for a Co-Pro and dropping the link augs, forcing you under 60km least you use Drone Control range rigs. The loss of mobility/range for only about 150dps gain is not worth it. I guess you could drop the shield extenders for tracking computers to regain that range, but I figured noone would want to fly such an expensive ship while only having 9k ehp. Although I'll probably use a variation of this fit at some point because the style of play seems fun.

=====

I really have nothing better to do than sit here and make stupid fits for a stupid ship that really should not go live in its current state.


These fittings you've been throwing around have 500 CPU. The actual CPU is 400.

This thread would be a lot less painful if you all learned to read. Especially Nyancat.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#671 - 2013-10-04 00:05:06 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
[snip]

5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.
"B-but you used Ogres... It's only theoretical dps." - Naysayers.

not when you have 2 webs and a warp scrambler to pin down your opponent.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#672 - 2013-10-04 00:06:52 UTC
Gabriel Locke wrote:


These fittings you've been throwing around have 500 CPU. The actual CPU is 400.

This thread would be a lot less painful if you all learned to read. Especially Nyancat.

They always post ships with the base stats before skills. 400 CPU becomes 500 CPU after Electronics V. How to test this theory? Go check out the HAC threads from 1.1 then compare them to the ingame numbers. They are the same. I think the only area where they did apply skills was for... alignment?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#673 - 2013-10-04 00:06:54 UTC
Gabriel Locke wrote:

These fittings you've been throwing around have 500 CPU. The actual CPU is 400.

This thread would be a lot less painful if you all learned to read. Especially Nyancat.

I am sorry to put it this way, but you need to learn to math. These still get there 25% from what ever the new skill name for Electronics is.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#674 - 2013-10-04 00:09:13 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Giving the ship 100% laser bonus completely defeats the reason to remove 2 turret hardpoints, with 4 turrets worth of damage it gets too high of DPS.




It probably is the only way to force lasers on this hull. With four turrets worth of damage, it would compensate for pulses higher fitting requirements, their high cap use and their bad tracking at the short ranges this hull would be suited for, given its slow speed and huge sig radius.

I'm fine with keeping more hardpoints and some irrelevant laser bonus - I'll just fit Blasters or ACs and be happy with that.

If they want to force the ship to match its description it needs to specialize in lasers in a way that overcomes all their shortcomings on a hull that would typically start to engage at 2000 m or less.

Considering the optimal range bonus - that doesn't make any sense at all - lasers wont be unviable on this ship for their optimal range. It's nonsensically high without any bonus at all - if anything this ship needs a laser tracking bonus that lets conflag pulses outperform blasters at 2000 m in terms of damage application, fitting requirements, cap use and damage types.



I think this would be the best possible change. Remove 2 hardpoints, add a 100% laser damage bonus.

What this does:
>> Removes OP neutron fits
>> Gears ship more towards exploration rather than PvP
>> Makes using longer-range drones viable
>> Makes speed tanking / kiting more viable


Thanks for the utility high slots

[Stratios, Test] Needs 3% CPU implant
1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device
2x Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
2x Heavy Pulse Laser II (Conflagration M)

10MN Afterburner II
2x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II

Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.


Seems like a glass cannon. What happens if you try to put some tank on it? How much EHP does it have? Speed?

849 DPS does seem like a bit much, I agree. But the fit itself is bad - it would die relatively easily to any kiting cruiser.

That said, a 5% per level optimal and damage bonus seems much better on 2 turrets.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#675 - 2013-10-04 00:09:43 UTC
Gabriel Locke wrote:


These fittings you've been throwing around have 500 CPU. The actual CPU is 400.

This thread would be a lot less painful if you all learned to read. Especially Nyancat.

Train up your electronics skill man...
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#676 - 2013-10-04 00:12:02 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


Seems like a glass cannon. What happens if you try to put some tank on it? How much EHP does it have? Speed?

849 DPS does seem like a bit much, I agree. But the fit itself is bad - it would die relatively easily to any kiting cruiser.

That said, a 5% per level optimal and damage bonus seems much better on 2 turrets.

They're not going to let the Stratios keep two utility highs for neuts regardless of anything else. That's not even remotely worth debating.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#677 - 2013-10-04 00:12:43 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Thanks for the utility high slots

[Stratios, Test] Needs 3% CPU implant
1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device
2x Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
2x Heavy Pulse Laser II (Conflagration M)

10MN Afterburner II
2x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II

Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.


Seems like a glass cannon. What happens if you try to put some tank on it? How much EHP does it have? Speed?

849 DPS does seem like a bit much, I agree. But the fit itself is bad - it would die relatively easily to any kiting cruiser.

That said, a 5% per level optimal and damage bonus seems much better on 2 turrets.

Did you forget this is a covert ship that can chose its range, begin the engagement within web and scram range?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#678 - 2013-10-04 00:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


Seems like a glass cannon. What happens if you try to put some tank on it? How much EHP does it have? Speed?

849 DPS does seem like a bit much, I agree. But the fit itself is bad - it would die relatively easily to any kiting cruiser.

That said, a 5% per level optimal and damage bonus seems much better on 2 turrets.

16,564 EHP with that Fit. 597.36m/s, 787.97 OH. But, why engage a kiting cruiser without the advantage? You have a cloak and I assume any pilot worth a damn would use it.

I'd use a DC over a second ENAM though, even with it being local rep. The ship is built like a Tanaris and nearly half of its EHP is in the hull. (3000 armor vs 3063 Hull at all V). Gets 21k with a DC.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#679 - 2013-10-04 00:18:18 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Thanks for the utility high slots

[Stratios, Test] Needs 3% CPU implant
1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device
2x Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
2x Heavy Pulse Laser II (Conflagration M)

10MN Afterburner II
2x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II

Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


5x Garde II
5x Ogre II

849 DPS with neuts, webs, scrams.


Seems like a glass cannon. What happens if you try to put some tank on it? How much EHP does it have? Speed?

849 DPS does seem like a bit much, I agree. But the fit itself is bad - it would die relatively easily to any kiting cruiser.

That said, a 5% per level optimal and damage bonus seems much better on 2 turrets.

Did you forget this is a covert ship that can chose its range, begin the engagement within web and scram range?


The reason I prefer an optimal bonus is because it makes the ship more useful for DED sites and PvE. It saves a lot of time rather than having to burn around a 150km area to shoot a few targets.

The ship should be angled more towards exploration and PvE - the bonuses should reflect that. An optimal range bonus / damage bonus would do just this.

Also, a 5% damage bonus + optimal per level on 2 turrets is not bad at ALL. At the most you will have 2.5 effective turrets (down from 4) with 25% more range - if that sounds overpowered we might as well just remove the ship from the game.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#680 - 2013-10-04 00:23:19 UTC
Dehval wrote:


But you used Ogres... It's only theoretical dps.



True - your point being?
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)