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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2013-10-03 21:17:39 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
In response to the people complaining about the effectiveness of a shield gank cruiser, CCP should cut the shield EHP in half instead of nerfing damage, tank, bandwidth, etc...

Lowering the tank would make this ship useless for DED sites below 5/10. Lowering the damage would give it an impractical ISK/hr ratio. Lowering the drone bay would make the ship impractical for "long haul" scenarios.


>> The frigate could use a drone damage bonus
>> The cruiser could use a laser optimal bonus


Well now whose spamming this thread? Cool

And no one's even talking about shield gank fits anymore, look at what this armor laser fit can do. And that's using the ships bonuses exactly as they were meant to be used.

800+ dps at 20km, dual prop, full tackle, tracking disruptor, 40k ehp, and 500m3 drone bay. Oh and a covops cloak. It only does EVERYTHING.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

As can the Gila

When a COVOPS ship (which dictates everything about its engagement) is compared to the Gila and the Vexor Navy Issue, you know something is out of whack.



800 DPS at 20km? Yeah. With Ogres.

By the time your Ogres reach the target, you will be dead. Those lasers do virtually no damage. If your target has the slightest ability to move, or even kite, you will be dead easily. The AAR fit outputs a pathetic 350 DPS tank at the maximum.

Have fun with that tracking, by the way.

Again, EFT DPS IS NOT ACTUAL, EFFECTIVE DPS.

There's nothing wrong with the drone bay for the purpose this ship was made. Quite a few T1 cruisers could make short work of this thing (Stabber comes to mind).

When you drop down to Hammerheads it only gets about ~460 DPS - which is actually reasonable.

Some people here don't want this ship to have ANY combat capabilities - that's weird, because this ship's intended role IS combat exploration.

And when you see the price of this in the market being ~500M ISK+, without fittings, tell me how much people are going to be using this in PvP.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2013-10-03 21:18:59 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
In response to the people complaining about the effectiveness of a shield gank cruiser, CCP should cut the shield EHP in half instead of nerfing damage, tank, bandwidth, etc...

Lowering the tank would make this ship useless for DED sites below 5/10. Lowering the damage would give it an impractical ISK/hr ratio. Lowering the drone bay would make the ship impractical for "long haul" scenarios.


>> The frigate could use a drone damage bonus
>> The cruiser could use a laser optimal bonus


Well now whose spamming this thread? Cool

And no one's even talking about shield gank fits anymore, look at what this armor laser fit can do. And that's using the ships bonuses exactly as they were meant to be used.

800+ dps at 20km, dual prop, full tackle, tracking disruptor, 40k ehp, and 500m3 drone bay. Oh and a covops cloak. It only does EVERYTHING.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

As can the Gila

When a COVOPS ship (which dictates everything about its engagement) is compared to the Gila and the Vexor Navy Issue, you know something is out of whack.

Which is why I have been saying that it needs to lose 2 turret hardpoints. That will bring down the DPS to around 725~750 with 2 damage mods.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#623 - 2013-10-03 21:20:36 UTC
Frunje Elbris wrote:
Hi, armor resist bonus seems to be off, based on the stated purpose of the ships. I perceive resist bonuses as fleet-focused ones, and as such not very useful for guerrilla warfare/individual operations. More in line with the concept seems to be [for me at least ;)] armor HP bonus. That means - yes, it helps you to survive the fight, but forces you to fall back to slowly lick your wounds, instead of proud tanking of enemy fire. Too lazy to do the math so no other fitting feedback from me :)


This is not a fleet PvP ship. It's an exploration ship, and therefore, it needs to be able to resist tank through reps or whatever.

Armor HP bonus would make little sense from an exploration ship's point of view.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#624 - 2013-10-03 21:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tragedy wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
I really wish ccp would put more thought into this kind of thing. This game doesnt need this kind of ship. Of course all eceryonr does is scream "new and shiny yay!" **** repercussions right?

What are these repercussions you foresee? How are the ships in concept a detriment to the game.

These make covert ops scanning ships obsolete for one. Right now you have to put some thought into what you want use to go exploring in null, low, or day tripping in whs in.
Once these are released its "all exploration should be done in a soe cruiser for max results"

For noncombat sites now there isn't much thought. Grab any scan frig and your set. Also drone dependent ships in WH's still won't outstrip T3's likely with their lower scan bonuses and less weapon destructibility.
Tragedy wrote:
Why would I take another ship over one of these for exploration ever? Its just like when they released ABCs, now they struggle to find roles for things like HACs. These are cool and all, but I just think why do we need them? The whole point of this massive ship re-balancing they're doing is to make unused ships useful. Releasing a ship that makes tons of others pointless right after balancing just seems to me like they're trying to throw the dog a bone to shut it up without thinking about the consequences.
I don't think a lack of an absolute need is a good reason to avoid adding ships. Especially since that would at this point practically mandate that no ships could really be added to the game. There aren't really any purposes that something we currently have can't be arranged to serve.

To be honest these don't even come across as the best overall things for the actual exploration job. Sites will be scanned faster by full 50% bonused ships witch include T3's and the T2 scan frigates. The T1's will be the cost conscious choice for non-combat sites in highsec, and depending on the details the Cov-ops could well cost less than these to make them attractive for the same sites in lowsec. T3's without covert cloaks will scan sites faster and do them just as well without the drawbacks of drone usage and these lack any option for interdiction nullification.

I'm not saying these don't need adjusted or trimmed back, but conceptually I don't see the issue you are making here.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#625 - 2013-10-03 21:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


800 DPS at 20km? Yeah. With Ogres.

By the time your Ogres reach the target, you will be dead. Those lasers do virtually no damage. If your target has the slightest ability to move, or even kite, you will be dead easily. The AAR fit outputs a pathetic 350 DPS tank at the maximum.

Have fun with that tracking, by the way.

Again, EFT DPS IS NOT ACTUAL, EFFECTIVE DPS.

There's nothing wrong with the drone bay for the purpose this ship was made. Quite a few T1 cruisers could make short work of this thing (Stabber comes to mind).

When you drop down to Hammerheads it only gets about ~460 DPS - which is actually reasonable.

Some people here don't want this ship to have ANY combat capabilities - that's weird, because this ship's intended role IS combat exploration.

And when you see the price of this in the market being ~500M ISK+, without fittings, tell me how much people are going to be using this in PvP.

Wonderful then that the exact fit I linked has a scram and a web. With a cloak to get in range to use it. Roll Target ain't moving anymore. And yes, a stabber will have a great time fighting a dual propped 40k ehp cruiser that packs a tracking disruptor. Roll

You're either a noob or a troll and I can't decide which tbh.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#626 - 2013-10-03 21:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


800 DPS at 20km? Yeah. With Ogres.

By the time your Ogres reach the target, you will be dead. Those lasers do virtually no damage. If your target has the slightest ability to move, or even kite, you will be dead easily. The AAR fit outputs a pathetic 350 DPS tank at the maximum.

Have fun with that tracking, by the way.

Again, EFT DPS IS NOT ACTUAL, EFFECTIVE DPS.

There's nothing wrong with the drone bay for the purpose this ship was made. Quite a few T1 cruisers could make short work of this thing (Stabber comes to mind).

When you drop down to Hammerheads it only gets about ~460 DPS - which is actually reasonable.

Some people here don't want this ship to have ANY combat capabilities - that's weird, because this ship's intended role IS combat exploration.

And when you see the price of this in the market being ~500M ISK+, without fittings, tell me how much people are going to be using this in PvP.

Wonderful then that the exact fit I linked has a scram and a web. With a cloak to get in range to use it. Roll Target ain't moving anymore. And yes, a stabber will have a great time fighting a dual propped 40k ehp cruiser that packs a tracking disruptor. Roll

You're either a noob or a troll and I can't decide which tbh.


And by the time the lock time delay timer is over from decloaking, the Stabber will be well out of range.

Also, why compare this to ships from lower classes and then call it OP?

I can see this losing to a Cynabal and Vigilant rather easily, if not also Ashimmu and Gila.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#627 - 2013-10-03 21:36:27 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


800 DPS at 20km? Yeah. With Ogres.

By the time your Ogres reach the target, you will be dead. Those lasers do virtually no damage. If your target has the slightest ability to move, or even kite, you will be dead easily. The AAR fit outputs a pathetic 350 DPS tank at the maximum.

Have fun with that tracking, by the way.

Again, EFT DPS IS NOT ACTUAL, EFFECTIVE DPS.

There's nothing wrong with the drone bay for the purpose this ship was made. Quite a few T1 cruisers could make short work of this thing (Stabber comes to mind).

When you drop down to Hammerheads it only gets about ~460 DPS - which is actually reasonable.

Some people here don't want this ship to have ANY combat capabilities - that's weird, because this ship's intended role IS combat exploration.

And when you see the price of this in the market being ~500M ISK+, without fittings, tell me how much people are going to be using this in PvP.

Wonderful then that the exact fit I linked has a scram and a web. With a cloak to get in range to use it. Roll Target ain't moving anymore. And yes, a stabber will have a great time fighting a dual propped 40k ehp cruiser that packs a tracking disruptor. Roll

You're either a noob or a troll and I can't decide which tbh.




Yeah, but if you're going to fight up close anyway (no longpoint), why lasers? Autocannons work just fine here and give you selectable damage types, while Blasters pack more punch for ~ the same capuse
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#628 - 2013-10-03 21:42:55 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
I really wish ccp would put more thought into this kind of thing. This game doesnt need this kind of ship. Of course all eceryonr does is scream "new and shiny yay!" **** repercussions right?


Can't be nearly as damaging at ABCs were.

Yeah thats true. Still though, these are a little ridiculous. I cant see myself ever flying an ishtar Nexor or gila over that soe ship. Mind you the gilas not rebalanced yet but you get my drift.


Well, a Nexor will be cheaper and you won't always need a cov ops cloak.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#629 - 2013-10-03 21:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

And by the time the lock time delay timer is over from decloaking, the Stabber will be well out of range.

Also, why compare this to ships from lower classes and then call it OP?

I can see this losing to a Cynabal and Vigilant rather easily, if not also Ashimmu and Gila.

You were the one to compare it to a stabber, not me. Even if the stabber isn't tackled, with TD+dual prop, stabber won't do **** to this cruiser either way. The ship will never loose to a cynabal because of the dual prop (allowing for AB during actual combat) utillity mids (see tracking disruptor) + 500m3 of drones. The drones will never stop coming. Also, Cynabal's kite. Scorch Pulse lasers hit Cynabals perfectly at kiting range.

The Ashimmu: Lol. It needs to be within 10k to use its bonuses and it has **** tank. Even if one only of these facts was true, it would still be dead.

You might be right that a Gila would beat this ship, but that's exactly the whole point. It takes a GILA to surpass a Covops ship in raw combat power. The fact that the comparison can even be made proves the ship needs adjustment.

Syrias Bizniz wrote:



Yeah, but if you're going to fight up close anyway (no longpoint), why lasers? Autocannons work just fine here and give you selectable damage types, while Blasters pack more punch for ~ the same capuse


Agreed, but these people insist on using lasers, and even then the ship is still ridiculous.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#630 - 2013-10-03 21:48:08 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
I really wish ccp would put more thought into this kind of thing. This game doesnt need this kind of ship. Of course all eceryonr does is scream "new and shiny yay!" **** repercussions right?


Can't be nearly as damaging at ABCs were.

Yeah thats true. Still though, these are a little ridiculous. I cant see myself ever flying an ishtar Nexor or gila over that soe ship. Mind you the gilas not rebalanced yet but you get my drift.


Well, a Nexor will be cheaper and you won't always need a cov ops cloak.

This. Also, as I said earlier, why are people comparing ships across tiers?

It's like complaining that a Machariel or Vindicator outdoes a Megathron.

If you compare this ship to it's counterparts - other pirate ships - you'll quickly realize it's really not overpowered at all. A Cynabal or Vigilant would make quick work of this.

In other words, it's more capable than non-pirate T1 ships, and almost as capable as T2 ships, but with less specialization - in line with CCP's philosophy about how Pirate ships should be. It seems perfect for exploration - not underpowered to run a 6/10, but not overpowered to be able to take on similar class ships without great difficulty.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#631 - 2013-10-03 21:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

This. Also, as I said earlier, why are people comparing ships across tiers?

Good question.

Nyancat Audeles wrote:


There's nothing wrong with the drone bay for the purpose this ship was made. Quite a few T1 cruisers could make short work of this thing (Stabber comes to mind).

Well Nyancat, can you answer Nyancat's excellent question?

Also: see the post directly above yours.
Anika Ataru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#632 - 2013-10-03 21:53:23 UTC
Sane Mei wrote:
I am not sure if anyone posted it before because this thread has 29 pages, but I think you guys should totally change desing of those SoE ships because of that:

Vulcan's star trek ship


It's just my curiosity;
Why you guys used same design as in Star Trek, it was pure mistake I meant you didn't know this or you did it specially because it's look good for example?

Guess why Star Trek artist designed that ship with such ring?
Here is the hint for you.
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#633 - 2013-10-03 22:01:07 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
There already are a few frigates that can drop a full set of light drones:

- Tristan (bonus to hybrid tracking + drone tracking/HP)
- Worm (Bonus to rocket/lm range + shield resists)
- Ishkur (Assault ship, but still worth a mention - if only because of the size: Hybrid damage bonus + hybrid optimal damage bonus + drone hitpoint bonus)

Other ships without a full flight include the Comet, the Imicus etc.

Keep in mind, those ships (one of them being a T1 frigate, Tristan - 2 guns + utility + 5 drones) can already dish out some damage with drones and guns. Yes, the Astero's drones are tougher and he has a bigger bay but... honestly, what does a drone bay matter when you're blown to smithereens by combined gun/drone fire.

That's why it deserves at least 2 pew pew lasers (like it's T1 cousin, Tristan - 2 turrets, 1 utility slot.)



So your complaint here is that a general purpose exploration ship is not as good in combat as a dedicated combat ship?

O_o are you wearing your pants on your head today or something?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2013-10-03 22:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
So how would it be with a 2 hardpoint/4 highslot setup with no damage bonus? Seems it's a slot up from the gila anyways, unless the gila is going to get another in the near future as well.

Also, Since Cov-ops and resist bonuses are both acknowledged as being rather powerful, should they both be on the same hull?
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#635 - 2013-10-03 22:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
PotatoOverdose wrote:

[snip]

And no one's even talking about shield gank fits anymore, look at what this armor laser fit can do. And that's using the ships bonuses exactly as they were meant to be used.

800+ dps at 20km, dual prop, full tackle, tracking disruptor, 40k ehp, and 500m3 drone bay. Oh and a covops cloak. It only does EVERYTHING.
It actually gets 46,320 EHP. Unless I am bad at making custom ships in EVEHQ. And I guess if you really hate Ogres you can use Berserkers and still get 700 dps, but with drones fast enough to catch ABing cruisers.

But, we could continue to focus on the fact that I used Ogres on a fitting that has all the tools to make their theoretical dps into effective dps yet still claim it is just "EFT numbers".


Edit: And just an update to all the fits. Assuming EVEHQ numbers do not lie to me after putting in all the known ship stats for speed/agility.

The Armor buffer fit puts the ship at 510 m/s (665 overload), with the MWD clocking in at 1,348 m/s (1921 m/s).
The MAAR "kiter" (not really) moves at 1,628 m/s (2,334m/s) with the MWD.
The Blaster Gank fit that everyone loves/hates zooms around at 628m/s (829 m/s) for the ab fit linked. It can go 1713m/s (2,456m/s) if you drop a Magstab for a co-pro if you wish to fit a MWD instead. I personally think that the sig bloom defeats the purpose of getting under the guns of ratting ships and killing them in about 20 seconds, but whatever.
Gabriel Locke
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#636 - 2013-10-03 22:12:51 UTC
My god this forum is awful.

Also, stop suggesting the Astero drops to 3 midslots (you all know who you are, and at least one of you should know better).

You need 4 midslots minimum for a proper exploration setup.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#637 - 2013-10-03 22:23:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So how would it be with a 2 hardpoint/4 highslot setup with no damage bonus? Seems it's a slot up from the gila anyways, unless the gila is going to get another in the near future as well.

Also, Since Cov-ops and resist bonuses are both acknowledged as being rather powerful, should they both be on the same hull?


As it's an exploration ship, and not a PvP ship, the resist bonuses are needed for PvE.

There might be some good in reducing to 2 hardpoints, but not until CCP adds a laser bonus (eg. optimal).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2013-10-03 22:26:07 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So how would it be with a 2 hardpoint/4 highslot setup with no damage bonus? Seems it's a slot up from the gila anyways, unless the gila is going to get another in the near future as well.

Also, Since Cov-ops and resist bonuses are both acknowledged as being rather powerful, should they both be on the same hull?


As it's an exploration ship, and not a PvP ship, the resist bonuses are needed for PvE.

There might be some good in reducing to 2 hardpoints, but not until CCP adds a laser bonus (eg. optimal).

No, the resists bonuses are NOT NEEDED for PvE. A rep bonus would work just fine. In PvE repair capacity > EHP.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#639 - 2013-10-03 22:29:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So how would it be with a 2 hardpoint/4 highslot setup with no damage bonus? Seems it's a slot up from the gila anyways, unless the gila is going to get another in the near future as well.

Also, Since Cov-ops and resist bonuses are both acknowledged as being rather powerful, should they both be on the same hull?


As it's an exploration ship, and not a PvP ship, the resist bonuses are needed for PvE.

There might be some good in reducing to 2 hardpoints, but not until CCP adds a laser bonus (eg. optimal).

No, the resists bonuses are NOT NEEDED for PvE. A rep bonus would work just fine. In PvE repair capacity > EHP.

Yup, but CCP said they didn't want to put the rep bonus on this (I forget why, but they were adamant about it).

I would prefer a rep bonus, but I'd take a resist bonus over no tank bonus at all for PvE. No tank bonus would make this useless.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#640 - 2013-10-03 22:29:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So how would it be with a 2 hardpoint/4 highslot setup with no damage bonus? Seems it's a slot up from the gila anyways, unless the gila is going to get another in the near future as well.

Also, Since Cov-ops and resist bonuses are both acknowledged as being rather powerful, should they both be on the same hull?


As it's an exploration ship, and not a PvP ship, the resist bonuses are needed for PvE.

There might be some good in reducing to 2 hardpoints, but not until CCP adds a laser bonus (eg. optimal).

How exactly do you plan on stopping this or any other ship from PvPing? ALL ships in eve are pvp ships.

Agree with reducing hardpoints/adding optimal bonus though.