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Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1
Eternal Curiousity Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 1	#341 - 2013-10-03 00:28:02 UTC Jedediah Arndtz wrote: So... this will bring us to three pirate cruisers with lasers, two with decent (at best) drones, and 0.5 missile boats. Four gallente pirate ships, and two Caldari. I'm feelin the love. Yeah..Where are our decent minmatar ships :(

Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 123
ConranAntoni Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 123	#342 - 2013-10-03 00:29:55 UTC 1 Love how theres so much shock that fitting blasters to any ship can cause dramatic DPS increases and hilarious levels of shitposting. Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.

Joe Risalo

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,261

#343 - 2013-10-03 00:31:12 UTC

CCP Rise wrote:

HERE THEY ARE

I think we will have a lot of discussion here, these ships will be great for a lot of different things meaning people will be trying to tug them in a few different directions. That's fine!

What we're shooting for is ships that are themed around exploration and therefor make good platforms for a range of activities including probing, hacking, exploration combat sites, anoms, killing anom runners, spying on people, looking super sexy and generally being kind of awesome.

We're supporting that model with things like:

Covert cloaks

Exploration role bonuses

Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often

Extremely high ship agility

And more!

Anyways you guys can toy around with these specs and let me know what we missed or what you think would be better and I'll try to make everyone happy (which is usually easy).

Thanks!

Astero

Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to drone hitpoints

Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 540 / 600 / 600
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 312 / 2.87 / 975000 / 3.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 35
Cargo Capacity: 210

Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550

PICTURES (Sorry don't have in-client shots yet)

Uhh, i'm just kinda wondering... what's that point in the frig, if the cruiser has everything the frig does, and more?

Vincent Ageon

Phoenix Administration

Likes received: 3

#344 - 2013-10-03 00:31:52 UTC

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Vincent Ageon wrote:

...Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.

It's intended as an exploration combat ship. It's also unique in that specialization. If it's not OP in that niche wouldn't that mean it has failed in design?

As a cruiser sized hull that would do this much better than most BC hulls? Sure. Id take the smaller ship any day over something much more bulky and potentially more skill intensive to get the same results. This isnt the next Cynabal, Gila, or Vigilant. As pirate faction ships those should still shine, as they do as awesome ships but long term deployment exploration is something THOSE ships weren't exactly meant for. Covops is already a powerful tool. The concept as it stands is great but in application there is serious doubt thats what the majority of users will be using it for. If the bonuses stand as is, id look of for these as hunters. In lore as well, Sisters of EVE methods have at times been questionable or rumored to be so, bu never out right pirat like. If anything there explorers with strong defensive/evasive capabilities. Little bit of teeth? Sure, when fighting is forced, but the Cruiser hull will be the one forcing fights if its not looked at what players will most likely do with it verses the reason for why the ship is being introduced to begin with. If CCP was looking to give us another combat focused ship, Id want say a serpentis version of the Brutix (since the serp vexor skin was already used as a torni prize).

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#345 - 2013-10-03 00:32:55 UTC

Joe Risalo wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Covert cloaks

Exploration role bonuses

Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often

Extremely high ship agility

And more!

Uhh, i'm just kinda wondering... what's that point in the frig, if the cruiser has everything the frig does, and more?

one will hit market for 50m .. other for 600-700m

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Joe Risalo

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,261

#346 - 2013-10-03 00:33:35 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Covert cloaks

Exploration role bonuses

Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often

Extremely high ship agility

And more!

Uhh, i'm just kinda wondering... what's that point in the frig, if the cruiser has everything the frig does, and more?

one will hit market for 50m .. other for 600-700m

once they really dig in, I really don't think the cruiser will be that much..

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#347 - 2013-10-03 00:33:49 UTC

Joe Risalo wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Covert cloaks

Exploration role bonuses

Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often

Extremely high ship agility

And more!

Uhh, i'm just kinda wondering... what's that point in the frig, if the cruiser has everything the frig does, and more?

Not trying to be rude, but that is kinda like asking why use a tristan when the vexor exists, or any pairing of frigate and cruiser with similar focuses.

Dehval

Ascendance Rising

Ascendance..

Likes received: 60

#348 - 2013-10-03 00:34:31 UTC | Edited by: Dehval

Goldensaver wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Nyancat Audeles wrote:

And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.

Here's a direct link to the post.

I would also like to note that at no point in that post did he indicate heat status, so it could be assumed that that is with heat. Most people will compare DPS numbers with heat. After all, in a cloaky ship with 1.1k DPS (under perfect situations) you can heat your guns right up, because the only things you'll engage are things that will go down in a short time.

Also worth noting is the lack of web on that fit, and the lack of briefcase. If I were to fly it I'd probably cram those two on in exchange for a bit of tank and a bit of damage. But to each their own.

Guy who posted the fit here.

It is without heat. I am not at my home computer so I can't give the exact number if you include overheating. Probably around 1.2k or so. And to the guy who is saying its 12K EHP in shields. I am sorry I didn't make that clear, it is 12k hit points in the shield, guesstimate 28k EHP in the shields. There is a difference between EHP and HP.

Regardless, its a shield gank fit. You have a list of targets you can engage and these are targets that fit MWD (scram to stop that) or ships that are too slow to escape even with AB (Battleships, some BCs). If you armor tank it you get a whole new list of targets, but you may find you are lacking in damage to kill others before help arrives. Armor tank gives you Web/Scram/Prop/Cap Booster/UItility for your mids and variable 25-45k ehp depending on if you want to local rep it. Still, if you don't find the target you want to kill you don't have to because it is a covert ops ship. These "counters" people mention? It is your prerogative to choose to engage them, but only if you are truly stupid or bold. That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability.

Finally, I don't understand why anyone thinks this thing is going to be that much more expensive than a standard pirate cruiser. It is (likely) going to be obtained from a faction LP store. A faction LP store that is (likely) located in the highsec SoE hubs. I do not foresee this costing any more than those already on the market past the first week or so.

Edit: I am going to keep going, because why not.

The mere fact that it is covert ops means that the optimal range on guns is somewhat an irrelevant figure. You can slowboat to your target with them being none the wiser. If you don't like the fact you can only shoot out to 3km, use Null. We are still rocking 1098 dps before overheat. Not doing it for you? Switch to Pulse lasers and shoot out to 20km while still doing around 900 dps (468 dps if you switch to Hammerheads). There are a lot of fits, I posted the simplest of Shield Gank fits with the assumption you are flying around cloaked waiting for some idiot to get trapped in your drag bubble.

Fusion Enterprises Ltd Pandemic Horde 442
Cage Man Fusion Enterprises Ltd Pandemic Horde Likes received: 442	#349 - 2013-10-03 00:35:46 UTC 2 Joe Risalo wrote: Uhh, i'm just kinda wondering... what's that point in the frig, if the cruiser has everything the frig does, and more? whats the point of any frig then?

Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 119
Eko Fromtv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation Likes received: 119	#350 - 2013-10-03 00:36:24 UTC The price tag will be equal to the capabilities. (Ice) Miner for life.

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#351 - 2013-10-03 00:37:02 UTC

Dehval wrote:

Goldensaver wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Nyancat Audeles wrote:

And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Because there are dozens of thousands of each other pirate BC in amrket. WHile these wil ahve a HUGE demand taht can only the fulfilled after at elast 1 year.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2,776
PotatoOverdose School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State Likes received: 2,776	#352 - 2013-10-03 00:37:19 UTC Dehval wrote: That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#353 - 2013-10-03 00:39:16 UTC

Joe Risalo wrote:

once they really dig in, I really don't think the cruiser will be that much..

When Cyanabals were really the most powerful pirate ships (now they are contested by the vigilant) they costed 550M isk. THis willbe in same status (psicologaically wise ) for a long time.

Also the cynabal will be nerfed and I woudl bet vigilant as well.. that woudl make this be even more interesting.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#354 - 2013-10-03 00:40:10 UTC

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Dehval wrote:

That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the problem is not that huge dps is that it can field the ogres whiel having PLENETY space for backup drones.

REduce drone bay to 200 meters and the problem is solved

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

M1k3y Koontz

House of Musashi

Stay Feral

Likes received: 806

#355 - 2013-10-03 00:43:10 UTC | Edited by: M1k3y Koontz

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Vincent Ageon wrote:

...Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.

It's intended as an exploration combat ship. It's also unique in that specialization. If it's not OP in that niche wouldn't that mean it has failed in design?

I wouldn't say its outright OP, the frigate isn't straight up better than other CovOps. The cruiser is unique, there are no other cruiser sized hulls with bonuses like it, and in that regard I suppose it could be considered OP, but just because a ship is unique doesn't mean that it is OP.

I think the frigate could use a bit more DPS, but the cruiser is fine where it is.
The model is totally OP though Cool

props to the art guys.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Ravasta Helugo

Republic University

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 338

#356 - 2013-10-03 00:43:19 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Dehval wrote:

That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the problem is not that huge dps is that it can field the ogres whiel having PLENETY space for backup drones.

REduce drone bay to 200 meters and the problem is solved

I think the drone bay makes sense, actually.

They just combined the two drone-weapon races for the first time. The drone bay should be incredible.

Omnathious Deninard

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,623

#357 - 2013-10-03 00:43:48 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Dehval wrote:

That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the problem is not that huge dps is that it can field the ogres whiel having PLENETY space for backup drones.

REduce drone bay to 200 meters and the problem is solved

The problem with a 200 meter drone bay, is if you lose a drone or two it is back to the station to regroup and then head out again. kinda makes the extended engagement a little shorter than extended.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#358 - 2013-10-03 00:50:07 UTC

Vincent Ageon wrote:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Vincent Ageon wrote:

...Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.

It's intended as an exploration combat ship. It's also unique in that specialization. If it's not OP in that niche wouldn't that mean it has failed in design?

Opinions regarding what we'd like to see added regarding ships isn't really the best feedback here, but that aside, part of what is desired from a combat PvE ship, which is where the cruiser is aimed vs it's frigate counterpart for non-combat sites, is damage output and application. If the ship becomes anemic in DPS or falls significantly below it's counterparts, even the non cloaky ones, it will not find use. Of course this means it will be used in other ways, but honestly that is a non issue to me as this is a combat ship. It will be used for PvP so long as it has any real capability there. And it will if it's any good in its intended role.

Dehval

Ascendance Rising

Ascendance..

Likes received: 60

#359 - 2013-10-03 00:51:49 UTC

Ravasta Helugo wrote:

Kagura Nikon wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Dehval wrote:

That fact that you can choose your targets is what makes the 1.1k dps so extreme. No other ship with that kind of damage output has that ability.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the problem is not that huge dps is that it can field the ogres whiel having PLENETY space for backup drones.

REduce drone bay to 200 meters and the problem is solved

I think the drone bay makes sense, actually.

They just combined the two drone-weapon races for the first time. The drone bay should be incredible.

Honestly? If I had my way I would lower the drone damage bonus to 5% per level, but give it a 5% Laser damage bonus per Amarr cruiser level as well. Switch the cap usage to 100% bonus damage, drop down to 2 (maybe 3) hardpoints. It is now more focused towards lasers (the original intent) and the Blaster Gank fit is no longer viable. The overall dps of the ship suffers a little now that you can't just stack DDAs to get over 900, but at least it isn't in Hyperion/Talos levels of bullshit damage for a covert class cruiser.

Vincent Ageon

Phoenix Administration

Likes received: 3

#360 - 2013-10-03 00:54:42 UTC | Edited by: Vincent Ageon

200m3 Drone bay
900m3 Cargo
5/5/5 4TH

40% Scan bonus
7.5% Virus Strength
15% Ship Tractor speed (not tractor beam)
25% Hacking/Analyzer module range

(stats not mentioned proposed to remain the same)

Thoughts?

(perhaps dropping drone damage to 5% per level and add laser dmg per level as someone stated above?)

This would make it more marketable as a explo anom runner, still give it offensive ability but not to match other ships specialized FOR that role, addresses the drone bay and cargo issue, keeps the High for utility but drops a turret to push for it. Thoughts?

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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Pator Tech School

Minmatar Republic

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

State War Academy

Caldari State

Phoenix Administration

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Ascendance Rising

Ascendance..

Fusion Enterprises Ltd

Pandemic Horde

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

House of Musashi

Stay Feral

Republic University

Minmatar Republic

University of Caille

Gallente Federation