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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#321 - 2013-10-03 00:00:34 UTC
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.

If this was meant as an exploration cruiser for long deployments, I'm not seeing it. Going by everyones suggestions and the bonuses as is, I see drone version of the Vigilant that can cloak on top of that.

Thought the idea was exploration with some teeth? I see lots of teeth with a little bit of explo.


Increase cargo bay, by quite a bit, drop the drone bay size to say.. 200? an decrease the bandwidth to 100. Its a CRUISER. Not a battle cruiser. Not a battle ship. Its a long deployment explo cruiser. Even if you strictly focused on that people are going to break it for Pvp so theres no worries there.

The mobile fitting array will take care of any needs regarding swapping out drones. This will be an essential NEED for "long deployments" so why not focus around the fact that one is going to be carried?

Keep hearing people cry "no laser bonuses? wtf? Needs more pew pew." I saw, wheres my hybrid turret bonus? I could use more dps on top that 1000. Go home. Roll

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#322 - 2013-10-03 00:03:12 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2013-10-03 00:04:05 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.


Exactly. This ship is a LONG DEPLOYMENT exploration ship. Use it in PvP if you want, but I think that the posted stats are perfect for it's purpose.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#324 - 2013-10-03 00:04:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
CCP Rise can you post us some cargo capacity numbers for these?


Yes! sorry for missing that.


Can you now increase them? They very small for a long trip exploration vessel.
As they can use covert bridges, will they be able to light covert cyno's
Also the frig needs another high so you can fit a salvager. yes drones can do the job.. but it is nice to be able to do both at the same time.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#325 - 2013-10-03 00:06:49 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.


Here's a direct link to the post.

I would also like to note that at no point in that post did he indicate heat status, so it could be assumed that that is with heat. Most people will compare DPS numbers with heat. After all, in a cloaky ship with 1.1k DPS (under perfect situations) you can heat your guns right up, because the only things you'll engage are things that will go down in a short time.

Also worth noting is the lack of web on that fit, and the lack of briefcase. If I were to fly it I'd probably cram those two on in exchange for a bit of tank and a bit of damage. But to each their own.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2013-10-03 00:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.

And you realize that a fraction of that DPS is "effective" DPS? This ship has few damage bonuses. It might have high DPS on paper, but you'll need to be always within the (tiny) optimal, and the drones won't be doing full on-paper damage because, drones.

EDIT: And that fit you posted? 12k EHP in shields (virtually nothing). It's AB fit, which means no catching anything with an MWD. It has no web, so good luck on holding something within your optimal. Also, it does a measly 500 m/s.

If you've ever taken part in small gang PvP you'll know that those are bad stats. Especially in nullsec.

Also, when you consider it, there are a lot of ships that could effectively counter this. Curse, Pilgrim, Cynabal, Vigilant, Prophecy, Ferox, etc... there are quite a few counters to this (and as it's a juicy target, there WILL be a lot of counters and people trying to gang up on it).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2013-10-03 00:14:12 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.

A vexor fit in a similar fashion will get 943 DPS and about 26k EHP 9k in shields.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#328 - 2013-10-03 00:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


If you want to do covops cloaky combat PvP, a Pilgrim would be a far better choice for you.[/b][/i]

As someone that's flown a pilgrim for years, with many expensive kills, this comment is full of ****.

Due to the npc AI changes, the moment a pilgrim uses any of its ewar, all of the npc's in a mission/plex/anom will primary the pilgrim.

Typical Pilgrims have 25-35k ehp and ~300-350 dps with ewar support. Ewar support that gets you killed these days.

Overtanked Pilgrims (think double plate) have 55-65k ehp with ~200-300 dps. Extremely slow, but has awesome staying power. I flew one of these for a very long time, and have many a tengu kill with it. It has ewar support, which gets you killed with the new npc changes.

Blaster Pilgrims: The most popular current pilgrim fit. 500 dps. 25-30k ehp. Reasonably quick, no ewar (to avoid deaths by npc). Really just a cheaper proteus.

The new cruiser gets 1100 dps max with 35k ehp. Don't bullshit me on cloaky gank ships. This thing has way more offensive power than any other covops hull, and may be a tad op.

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

A vexor fit in a similar fashion will get 943 DPS and about 26k EHP 9k in shields.

-So 200 less dps (before overheat, so may as well be 300 less dps due to overheat scaling with base damage)
-9k Less ehp.
-No Covops Cloak.

Yeah, I stand by my point.
Vincent Ageon
Phoenix Administration
#329 - 2013-10-03 00:15:39 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.

If this was meant as an exploration cruiser for long deployments, I'm not seeing it. Going by everyones suggestions and the bonuses as is, I see drone version of the Vigilant that can cloak on top of that.

Thought the idea was exploration with some teeth? I see lots of teeth with a little bit of explo.


Increase cargo bay, by quite a bit, drop the drone bay size to say.. 200? an decrease the bandwidth to 100. Its a CRUISER. Not a battle cruiser. Not a battle ship. Its a long deployment explo cruiser. Even if you strictly focused on that people are going to break it for Pvp so theres no worries there.

The mobile fitting array will take care of any needs regarding swapping out drones. This will be an essential NEED for "long deployments" so why not focus around the fact that one is going to be carried?

Keep hearing people cry "no laser bonuses? wtf? Needs more pew pew." I saw, wheres my hybrid turret bonus? I could use more dps on top that 1000. Go home. Roll

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.



While I agree, a large drone bay does allow it be on long term deployments as things are but the 10% drone bonus combined with the 125mbit put its up there with other dedicated drone combat ships and youve whatever tool needed at your disposal already loaded for a pvp engagement. The mobile fitting array I feel is going to be a major game changer on roams and other long deployments. If those extra drones were moved to the (larger) cargo bay (to compensate) you can still have those tools at your disposal but it forces you to be more selective. Not addressing the mbit just means roaming with 5 heavies and using the cargo for cap boosters. Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2013-10-03 00:17:46 UTC
The part that really gets me is that the ship is well made for scanning out sites then running them and then they are made to be drone boats. With Drones, excluding sentry, being next to useless against NPC's these days, It would only make sense to avoid making any PVE/exploration ship depend on drones.

Does this mean that we get medium micro jump drives to fit on the cruiser to make sentry drones more of an option?
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2013-10-03 00:17:50 UTC
Vincent Ageon wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
After seeing the 1000dpsShocked blaster fit shield cruiser, I'm inclined to JUST use this ship in PvP. Cloak, approach, 0, and kill. Ogres (either a second set to say F* you. If they kill one, woopty friggen do) and Blaster II with void.

If this was meant as an exploration cruiser for long deployments, I'm not seeing it. Going by everyones suggestions and the bonuses as is, I see drone version of the Vigilant that can cloak on top of that.

Thought the idea was exploration with some teeth? I see lots of teeth with a little bit of explo.


Increase cargo bay, by quite a bit, drop the drone bay size to say.. 200? an decrease the bandwidth to 100. Its a CRUISER. Not a battle cruiser. Not a battle ship. Its a long deployment explo cruiser. Even if you strictly focused on that people are going to break it for Pvp so theres no worries there.

The mobile fitting array will take care of any needs regarding swapping out drones. This will be an essential NEED for "long deployments" so why not focus around the fact that one is going to be carried?

Keep hearing people cry "no laser bonuses? wtf? Needs more pew pew." I saw, wheres my hybrid turret bonus? I could use more dps on top that 1000. Go home. Roll

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.



While I agree, a large drone bay does allow it be on long term deployments as things are but the 10% drone bonus combined with the 125mbit put its up there with other dedicated drone combat ships and youve whatever tool needed at your disposal already loaded for a pvp engagement. The mobile fitting array I feel is going to be a major game changer on roams and other long deployments. If those extra drones were moved to the (larger) cargo bay (to compensate) you can still have those tools at your disposal but it forces you to be more selective. Not addressing the mbit just means roaming with 5 heavies and using the cargo for cap boosters. Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.


How is this OP for exploration? It was intended to be able to run 6/10s effectively without massively blinging it out.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2013-10-03 00:18:08 UTC
Vincent Ageon wrote:
...Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.

It's intended as an exploration combat ship. It's also unique in that specialization. If it's not OP in that niche wouldn't that mean it has failed in design?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2013-10-03 00:19:52 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.


Exactly. This ship is a LONG DEPLOYMENT exploration ship. Use it in PvP if you want, but I think that the posted stats are perfect for it's purpose.



Exploration includes exploring space to find peopel to BLOW UP!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2013-10-03 00:21:07 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
The part that really gets me is that the ship is well made for scanning out sites then running them and then they are made to be drone boats. With Drones, excluding sentry, being next to useless against NPC's these days, It would only make sense to avoid making any PVE/exploration ship depend on drones.

Please go have a nice talk with my Hammerhead IIs and Hobgoblin IIs, my Ogre IIs will listen in on the conversation as well. They have run a great number of complexes and came back alive.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2013-10-03 00:21:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vincent Ageon wrote:
...Is the ship itself OP? As it stands, its awesome, yes but perhaps not OP. As an exploration ship? Yes. OP as hell.

It's intended as an exploration combat ship. It's also unique in that specialization. If it's not OP in that niche wouldn't that mean it has failed in design?

This, too! It makes an okay PvP ship but the nice thing about this is that it performs well in exploration (it's intended role).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2013-10-03 00:22:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.


Exactly. This ship is a LONG DEPLOYMENT exploration ship. Use it in PvP if you want, but I think that the posted stats are perfect for it's purpose.



Exploration includes exploring space to find peopel to BLOW UP!

Neither were intended to be able to use a Expanded Probe Launcher, T3s will fill that role better.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2013-10-03 00:22:52 UTC
Samara Anninen wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Samara Anninen wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
What's really disappointing is that the community is stuck in some old mindset that "anything different = overpowered" or that anything expensive is suddenly overpowered.

This is NOT overpowered. If anything, the frigate needs a buff in damage.


They are different, they don't have analogs (why one should train gallente/amarr skills to use the only ones cloaky exploration damage dealers?) and they overlap with CovOps - why would you ever need one with these beasts?

So, they don't belong to one of the currently existing ship classes which makes them what is called "a fifth wheel of the cart" because they are somewhere between CovOps and usual damage dealing ships.


Pirate ships ARE supposed to be a bit better than T2 ships. Analogues will come, give it time.

Just because a ship class is new does not make it overpowered. Plenty of things can defeat these easily.


But all current pirate ships are just "updated" t1 ships by both skill prerequisites and bonuses. These ones are basically "updated" t2 (by bonuses - CovOps) but with usual pirate prerequisites (racial t1 skills).
This makes me want to born Amarr/Gallente :3

Anyway, its not a good way to design games by adding something which benefits some races over others like in this case - basically new class of ships without counterparts from other two races. So, maybe they should be simply delayed till this counterparts are developed.


Tell taht to the vigilant. It has very pwoerful bonus not find elsewhere and overdamage anything on realistic scenarios (no damage cahrts based on Ogre II are not realistic because you will deal fulld amage to battleships only and some fat BC, but you will be MURDERED if you try to fight an Assault frigate

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2013-10-03 00:23:40 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

I'm seeing it good for long deployments, minus the low cargohold. It can have 500m3 of drones, meaning a full set of damage drones, a backup set of damage drones, 2 sets of medium drones, 2 sets of light drones, a set of ECM lights, a set of ECM mediums and a set of salvage drones. Just for example. And it has more than enough cargohold for 3 sets of 4 laser crystals at least.

On top of this, if you fit it with a single rep it is able to repair itself between engagements/rats. It seems pretty good for staying out for quite extended periods.


Exactly. This ship is a LONG DEPLOYMENT exploration ship. Use it in PvP if you want, but I think that the posted stats are perfect for it's purpose.



Exploration includes exploring space to find peopel to BLOW UP!

Neither were intended to be able to use a Expanded Probe Launcher, T3s will fill that role better.


You dont need!! You just need to find the sites that people are running.. and follow them. Expande dprobe laucnhers are only needed when huntign safes.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2013-10-03 00:24:57 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


And all of that considered, a Vexor can easily get in that DPS range. A Vexor could probably kill this relatively easily, too.

Look a the fit provided on this page.
35k EHP, 1127 dps (Before overheat!!!), with bay for utillity drones and covops cloak. Gank Talos's and Nado's have comparable dps and way less tank.

Show me an 1127 dps vexor with 35k ehp. Go ahead, I'll wait. And that's without a covops cloak.

It's an awesome ship, I want to use it....but I can't reasonably say its balanced.

And you realize that a fraction of that DPS is "effective" DPS? This ship has few damage bonuses. It might have high DPS on paper, but you'll need to be always within the (tiny) optimal, and the drones won't be doing full on-paper damage because, drones.

EDIT: And that fit you posted? 12k EHP in shields (virtually nothing). It's AB fit, which means no catching anything with an MWD. It has no web, so good luck on holding something within your optimal. Also, it does a measly 500 m/s.

If you've ever taken part in small gang PvP you'll know that those are bad stats. Especially in nullsec.

Also, when you consider it, there are a lot of ships that could effectively counter this. Curse, Pilgrim, Cynabal, Vigilant, Prophecy, Ferox, etc... there are quite a few counters to this (and as it's a juicy target, there WILL be a lot of counters and people trying to gang up on it).

But can a counter be effective if the SoE ship is always the aggressor, and avoids the counter? I mean, you could always lay out some tasty bait ship I guess...
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#340 - 2013-10-03 00:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


EDIT: And that fit you posted? 12k EHP in shields (virtually nothing). It's AB fit, which means no catching anything with an MWD. It has no web, so good luck on holding something within your optimal. Also, it does a measly 500 m/s.

If you've ever taken part in small gang PvP you'll know that those are bad stats. Especially in nullsec.


Learn to read. It's not my fit. It has 12k RAW hp before resists, not EHP. It has 35k EHP.

It has a scram which turns of MWD's. You decloak on top of them, scram, done. Typical Pilgrim is AB+scram fit. Works like a charm. But evidently, you don't know jack about that.

Also, don't talk to me about pvp experience. You don't have a single solo pvp kill on your killboard in the last 9 months, and all you fly in pvp is T1 cruisers and frigates. You don't know jack about cloaky pvp.

Nice try.