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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#181 - 2013-10-03 19:25:40 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:


Post buff stats: ~3500 EHP, cap stable with everything but the NOS running (you probably won't have something to drain if you're neuting the other guy), 80 DPS, 30km neuts neuting 108/cycle, ~2700m/s, it *should* be cap stable running at least 1 neut, the tracking disruptor and the warp disruptor without the cap booster after patch.

Basically what it comes down to is if it has turrets and is within 30km range of you, it's likely about to die a slow and horrible death. It'll have no cap to chase/kill you with, its guns won't be able to shoot anything, including your drones, and it will die as everything shuts down and your drones pick it apart.


48m sig radius. 3500 EHP. That is pretty close to the norm for these ships. They all seem to do less then 100 DPS as well. They have trouble killing drones in a timely manner much less enemy ships in a 1v1. Ewar is a force multiplier but it won't take that much to blap these things.

Links used as an argument can give them pretty sick stats. On the other side of the coin a 30m isk ewar frigate can pretty much shut down some 'leet solo pvp'ers' with their booster alts in system.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-10-03 19:28:45 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Hyenas are going to be THE thing to run capital escalations, you read it here first.



The issue is that the range to painter is not very useful since most of the time you will want to be within 35 km to use web as well.

Painters never had issues with range. So the bonus is a weak one. A 5% range one but with a better bonus to sig radius would be more useful.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#183 - 2013-10-03 19:32:59 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:


Post buff stats: ~3500 EHP, cap stable with everything but the NOS running (you probably won't have something to drain if you're neuting the other guy), 80 DPS, 30km neuts neuting 108/cycle, ~2700m/s, it *should* be cap stable running at least 1 neut, the tracking disruptor and the warp disruptor without the cap booster after patch.

Basically what it comes down to is if it has turrets and is within 30km range of you, it's likely about to die a slow and horrible death. It'll have no cap to chase/kill you with, its guns won't be able to shoot anything, including your drones, and it will die as everything shuts down and your drones pick it apart.


48m sig radius. 3500 EHP. That is pretty close to the norm for these ships. They all seem to do less then 100 DPS as well. They have trouble killing drones in a timely manner much less enemy ships in a 1v1. Ewar is a force multiplier but it won't take that much to blap these things.

Links used as an argument can give them pretty sick stats. On the other side of the coin a 30m isk ewar frigate can pretty much shut down some 'leet solo pvp'ers' with their booster alts in system.


Also worth considering if you feel like getting in under their severely gimped guns is this:

[Sentinel, test]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Egress Port Maximizer I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x4
Hobgoblin II x4
Warrior II x4


~140 DPS, same EHP levels, same cap life approximately. As long as you have 1 neut going, the TD, and the warp disruptor and the gun you should be about cap stable. If they're cap boosting this might not be such a great idea, so you might prefer the longer range variant. If they're neuting you (before they ran out of cap, that is) you still have the cap booster to keep your own cap up. If they're NOSing, just keep a bit of range and laugh.

Basically, if it has turrets and not a full set of lights/a full set of bonused lights, you're laughing.
Dex Slim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2013-10-03 19:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dex Slim
Remove post.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2013-10-03 20:14:39 UTC
Quote:
Your post suggests that you do not solo pvp in frigates a lot, especially your talk about an AF's natural 'toughness for a frig', what does that even mean? A standard Sentinel fit does ~100 dps with hobs (1 DDA), that is more than enough to break the tank of a typical AF. The Sentinel can outrun drones and after this buff it can even stay outside a typical Hawk's rocket range (22,8km) while neuting. You say AFs would laugh at it, then give me an example outside LML Hawk/Vengeance lol-fits. These will be untouchable in most frig/AF 1vs1 situations because they simply will not be caught (unless stupid mistakes are made).

The Talismans were included to prove a point, but without them you'd cap out any AF in 10 seconds instead of 8. Big difference.

I think a better idea is to keep e-war as it is or nerf it a bit. Instead buff the ship's survivability and combat ability. A frigate neuting at 32km or webbing at 35km (without links or faction webs) seems immensily overpowered to me. Saying that overpowered ships are okay because "then everyone will use them" or "noone will fight them anyway" is a really crappy argument for letting these ships into the game.


Dex, post with your main, or don't post.


As it is, you're doing alot of theorying that has no basis behind it.


A sentinel with 1 DDA has about the equivalent of a news paper for tank. All any frigate will have to do is look at it funny and it will die. or be in half hull at least. There is pretty much no reason for someone to BE in honorable 1v1 frigate combat at the sun with a sentinel, anyway, because... well.... D scan bro. And in the Event they are, Overheat your AB/MWD and burn away, because you know the sentinel will pull range. Or fit a cap booster. Yeah, you may have to give up something for it, but I believe that is the point of fitting in Eve. Choices.


And IN the event you lose a frigate...... please send me the mail with your tears.

Get on the test server, bro.


A ship being a strong frigate in Honorable 1v1 Frigate combat at the sun doesn't make it a monster that must be put down like the rabid dog it is, as I've heard T3's described as. That same sentinel will get eaten by everything else. So what if it's possibly, POSSIBLY, a strong 1v1 frigate(which it is probably not near as OMGWTFBBQSAUCE as you're making it out to be).
A vexor is a pretty strong cruiser too. But it fits well into the whole scheme. A curse is really good in it's element, but outside of it, it's completely useless.

Enter the Sentinel.


Get on Test server, and try it.

An ishkur will not even be phased by a sentinel. First it kills its drones, because 5 bonused drones eats 4 unbonused drones, and.... oh.... require no cap, then it eats the sentinel.


Drones rarely apply all '100 dps', AND ishkur's have pretty decent resists.

Let it see the light of day and how it interacts with all the others before condemning it.


A sentinel will have a really difficult time neuting a Kitsune when it's jammed, or a Keres when it's been damped down to nothing, or a really hard time pulling range on a Hyena.

But, but, but, drones!?

Yeah... drones.


Let the test server speak for itself. The Sentinel's drone bay is a bit too large. The rest of it, and all the others looks really interesting.



Saying that because YOU think they will be overpowered, while posting on an alt with no KB history, they must be nerfed is a really crappy argument, bro.



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Dex Slim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2013-10-03 20:41:37 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Quote:
Your post suggests that you do not solo pvp in frigates a lot, especially your talk about an AF's natural 'toughness for a frig', what does that even mean? A standard Sentinel fit does ~100 dps with hobs (1 DDA), that is more than enough to break the tank of a typical AF. The Sentinel can outrun drones and after this buff it can even stay outside a typical Hawk's rocket range (22,8km) while neuting. You say AFs would laugh at it, then give me an example outside LML Hawk/Vengeance lol-fits. These will be untouchable in most frig/AF 1vs1 situations because they simply will not be caught (unless stupid mistakes are made).

The Talismans were included to prove a point, but without them you'd cap out any AF in 10 seconds instead of 8. Big difference.

I think a better idea is to keep e-war as it is or nerf it a bit. Instead buff the ship's survivability and combat ability. A frigate neuting at 32km or webbing at 35km (without links or faction webs) seems immensily overpowered to me. Saying that overpowered ships are okay because "then everyone will use them" or "noone will fight them anyway" is a really crappy argument for letting these ships into the game.


Dex, post with your main, or don't post.


As it is, you're doing alot of theorying that has no basis behind it.


A sentinel with 1 DDA has about the equivalent of a news paper for tank. All any frigate will have to do is look at it funny and it will die. or be in half hull at least. There is pretty much no reason for someone to BE in honorable 1v1 frigate combat at the sun with a sentinel, anyway, because... well.... D scan bro. And in the Event they are, Overheat your AB/MWD and burn away, because you know the sentinel will pull range. Or fit a cap booster. Yeah, you may have to give up something for it, but I believe that is the point of fitting in Eve. Choices.


And IN the event you lose a frigate...... please send me the mail with your tears.

Get on the test server, bro.


A ship being a strong frigate in Honorable 1v1 Frigate combat at the sun doesn't make it a monster that must be put down like the rabid dog it is, as I've heard T3's described as. That same sentinel will get eaten by everything else. So what if it's possibly, POSSIBLY, a strong 1v1 frigate(which it is probably not near as OMGWTFBBQSAUCE as you're making it out to be).
A vexor is a pretty strong cruiser too. But it fits well into the whole scheme. A curse is really good in it's element, but outside of it, it's completely useless.

Enter the Sentinel.


Get on Test server, and try it.

An ishkur will not even be phased by a sentinel. First it kills its drones, because 5 bonused drones eats 4 unbonused drones, and.... oh.... require no cap, then it eats the sentinel.


Drones rarely apply all '100 dps', AND ishkur's have pretty decent resists.

Let it see the light of day and how it interacts with all the others before condemning it.


A sentinel will have a really difficult time neuting a Kitsune when it's jammed, or a Keres when it's been damped down to nothing, or a really hard time pulling range on a Hyena.

But, but, but, drones!?

Yeah... drones.


Let the test server speak for itself. The Sentinel's drone bay is a bit too large. The rest of it, and all the others looks really interesting.



Saying that because YOU think they will be overpowered, while posting on an alt with no KB history, they must be nerfed is a really crappy argument, bro.





How can you kill it if you cannot catch it? It kites remember? And with no juice to run AB/MWD (because of neut) you are stationary, hence most of the drone DPS will apply. I am trying to convince you while backing up with actual fits and hard numbers. If you still are not convinced I suggest you search for it on youtube, among others there are some vid's from Bienator II there who seem to fly it alot and actually spoke against the buff earlier in this thread. And those vid's are with a Sentinel with 19km neut range. And for my main, I've got a hint for you, there are only 2 pilots in this corp.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#187 - 2013-10-03 21:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Honestly I have no idea why players are suggesting a Sentinel and Keres can be exploded by a battleship so easily.

When I've rocked the aforementioned ships I tend to be able to lock down most direct combat ships above destroyers. The Keres and Sentinel have always been the most useful in fleets and survivable. Both ships can be armored or shield tanked.

Example:

[Keres, K]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Overdrive Injector System II

Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x1

As I've said. The Keres and or Sentinel can lock down at least one ship. Often you'll only have to deal with removing said ships drones. THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE IS TO MAKE THE SLIGHTLY MORE SURVIVABLE.

note: i would make an exception for the Hyena and I would focus on increasing its stasis webifier Range ONLY.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2013-10-03 21:03:16 UTC
Dex Slim wrote:
How can you kill it if you cannot catch it? It kites remember? And with no juice to run AB/MWD (because of neut) you are stationary, hence most of the drone DPS will apply. I am trying to convince you while backing up with actual fits and hard numbers. If you still are not convinced I suggest you search for it on youtube, among others there are some vid's from Bienator II there who seem to fly it alot and actually spoke against the buff earlier in this thread. And those vid's are with a Sentinel with 19km neut range. And for my main, I've got a hint for you, there are only 2 pilots in this corp.




Since it looks like most of your kills are killing FW peeps, in a slasher........


You DO have a gate, and D scan.


You can fit a cap booster.


You can catch it on its warp in.


You're trying to convince me there is no reason whatsoever to in any way shape or form run this set up on the test server, that because this ship might be a strong frigate, it has absolutely no place or reason to be in Eve.

What I'm telling you is that it is worth looking at, and it CAN be a strong frigate, and have a place in the rest of Eve, and Still be fairly well balanced. Because it could beat other frigates..... well we can't have that.

How often does that slasher of yours win against dramiels? Ishkurs? Your daredevil kill was you and two other interceptors.


So you're arguing that a ship shouldn't be able to put up a fight? Maybe even win some? You're arguing maintain the status quo because change is bad..... See how it goes.

The balance in these EAF's is this: The Keres and Kitsune can completely shut the Hyena and Sentinel down for a time. But, the Hyena and Sentinel have the ability to counter the Keres and Kitsune with webs, neuts and drones.


A frig without an AB still goes ballpark 250-300m/s, and still has a tiny sig, so still throws drone DPS. Not entirely but it does reduce it.


I suggest you sit back, relax, and be the first person on Test server when these hit.

And learn to fly something other than a slasher. Because... yeah. A slasher will struggle with these.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#189 - 2013-10-03 21:39:12 UTC
Please please can you give the Kitsune a drone. It could be an awesome solo ship (similar to the old Griffin) but needs a bit more DPS.
Dex Slim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2013-10-03 21:49:08 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Dex Slim wrote:
How can you kill it if you cannot catch it? It kites remember? And with no juice to run AB/MWD (because of neut) you are stationary, hence most of the drone DPS will apply. I am trying to convince you while backing up with actual fits and hard numbers. If you still are not convinced I suggest you search for it on youtube, among others there are some vid's from Bienator II there who seem to fly it alot and actually spoke against the buff earlier in this thread. And those vid's are with a Sentinel with 19km neut range. And for my main, I've got a hint for you, there are only 2 pilots in this corp.




Since it looks like most of your kills are killing FW peeps, in a slasher........


You DO have a gate, and D scan.


You can fit a cap booster.


You can catch it on its warp in.


You're trying to convince me there is no reason whatsoever to in any way shape or form run this set up on the test server, that because this ship might be a strong frigate, it has absolutely no place or reason to be in Eve.

What I'm telling you is that it is worth looking at, and it CAN be a strong frigate, and have a place in the rest of Eve, and Still be fairly well balanced. Because it could beat other frigates..... well we can't have that.

How often does that slasher of yours win against dramiels? Ishkurs? Your daredevil kill was you and two other interceptors.


So you're arguing that a ship shouldn't be able to put up a fight? Maybe even win some? You're arguing maintain the status quo because change is bad..... See how it goes.

The balance in these EAF's is this: The Keres and Kitsune can completely shut the Hyena and Sentinel down for a time. But, the Hyena and Sentinel have the ability to counter the Keres and Kitsune with webs, neuts and drones.


A frig without an AB still goes ballpark 250-300m/s, and still has a tiny sig, so still throws drone DPS. Not entirely but it does reduce it.


I suggest you sit back, relax, and be the first person on Test server when these hit.

And learn to fly something other than a slasher. Because... yeah. A slasher will struggle with these.


Yes exactly, solo frigate and small scale PVP in FW - the arena I know something about and where I think the Sentinel will be overpowered.

You are misunderstanding me. I am not against the new Sentinel because it will own my Slasher, but because it will own most AF/frigate class ships not specifically designed to counter it. I actually just bought 20 Sentinels for myself for that very reason.

I am not saying I'm against a buff overall, I'm just afraid that buffing e-war range is the wrong way to do it. But yeah, let's see how it goes on the test server.
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#191 - 2013-10-03 23:25:36 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
REALLY? after how many years of absolute bitching and people wanting eaf's to be good you still didnt change the fundamental thing that makes them all SUCK? their sig radius? litterly NOTHING has changed with these ships. they will still die to ANY battleship that looks at them funny


Yeah it's kind of like a 20m ISK frigate was never intended to be part of battleship fleet comps or something...


What CCP isn't getting here is that nobody is going to like balancing ships around the idea of "you know what's a good counter to these? Bring more of them!" and that's exactly what these EAFs are at least within their hull class. You've made frigate hulls that can shut down other ships from well outside every other frigates lock range let alone damage range, wtf is the counter to these ships other than "bring your own!" or sniper ships several classes above them? Give me a gang of ships heavily comped towards EAFs and I guarantee no similar sized frig/Dessie gang is going to have a chance in hell of winning that engagement unless they bring their own EAFs to counter my EAFs, and that's terrible balancing.


I can think of a couple.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#192 - 2013-10-04 00:46:32 UTC
Overpowered. What is going to happen to the recons? I guess they will be able to ewar everything in the entire system.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#193 - 2013-10-04 01:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I'm not a fan of the current changes being implemented. Those in this thread and others or in the past. One my my biggest issues is what I see as OVERLAP. Examples of overlap are as follows: Caracal/Bellicose, Myrmidon/Prophecy, Typhoon/Raven, Drake/Cyclone, and Dominix/Armageddon ETC.

In some cases Amarr drone ships are superior to Gallente ones and some Minmatar missile ships are as good or better than caldari ships of the same class. These ships DO THE SAME THING.

Anyway.

Here's an obvious but serious question. Why do electronic attack frigates have bonuses to multiple electronic warfare modules just like Recons? Shouldn't they have less capabilities? Not to mention the issue of OVERLAP between the 2 classes of ships?

In my opinion the electronic attack frigates should excel at one form of offensive electronic warfare module. For example:

- only bonuses for energy vampire and energy neutralizer on the Sentinel.
- only bonuses warp disruptor range on the Keres
- only bonuses stasis webifier range on the Hyena
- Kitsune does it thing.

and so on... There's no need for a bonus to tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners because they're already REALLY effective.

From this point on I'd just give them all resistance bonuses to add to survivability. I'd also limit their overall velocities to just under 2000 m/sec. None of these ships should be really fast in my opinion. These ships should focus mainly on Defense and their electronic warfare almost ignore damage all together.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#194 - 2013-10-04 02:14:32 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
I'm not a fan of the current changes being implemented. Those in this thread and others or in the past. One my my biggest issues is what I see as OVERLAP. Examples of overlap are as follows: Caracal/Bellicose, Myrmidon/Prophecy, Typhoon/Raven, Drake/Cyclone, and Dominix/Armageddon ETC.

In some cases Amarr drone ships are superior to Gallente ones and some Minmatar missile ships are as good or better than caldari ships of the same class. These ships DO THE SAME THING.

Anyway.

Here's an obvious but serious question. Why do electronic attack frigates have bonuses to multiple electronic warfare bonuses just like Recons? Shouldn't they have less capability? Not to mention the issue of OVERLAP between the 2 classes of ships?

In my opinion the electronic attack frigates should excel at one form of offensive electronic warfare module. For example:

- only bonuses for energy vampire and energy neutralizer on the Sentinel.
- only bonuses warp disruptor range on the Keres
- only bonuses stasis webifier range on the Hyena
- Kitsune does it thing.

and so on... There's no need for a bonus to tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners because they're already REALLY effective.

From this point on I'd just give them all resistance bonuses to add to survivability. I'd also limit their overall velocities to just under 2000 m/sec. None of these ships should be really fast in my opinion. These ships should focus mainly on Defense and their electronic warfare almost ignore damage all together.


This is an interesting viewpoint that has not been voiced before. I like that it would keep T1 disruption frigs unique from EAS. They would have to be much smaller with their sig radii.
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#195 - 2013-10-04 02:50:11 UTC
ill finally have a reason to replace my long dead Keres with many, many new Keres. more tank a bit more speed, ALOT more lock range. looks good.

just one question (maybe its been answered and I missed it)

is the warp disruptor a typo? ONLY disruptors, not scrams?

22 km t2 scram might be a bit much if not. these aren't t3s afterall.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#196 - 2013-10-04 03:44:12 UTC
I must confess... while I like these changes I'm also a fair bit leery.

There is already quite a bit of Ewar shenanigans in low-sec... the Faction War areas especially. I can definitely see Keres, Sentinels, Hyenas soloing various frigates and destroyers from ~30+ km away... the latter two especially as the Sentinel won't have much to fear outside of Light Missile ships and the Hyena will simply live up to it's name and laugh while double webbing everything from well beyond frigate/destroyer engagement range.

Perhaps reduce a speed on them a fair bit?
These ships are going to be engaging at extreme range (relative to frigates) regardless of the situation (as any proper Ewar boat should)... they need a more serious drawback besides being "fragile" (with high enough speed you can be as fragile as you want to be... few people are going to hit you).

How did you Veterans start?
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#197 - 2013-10-04 05:31:13 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
REALLY? after how many years of absolute bitching and people wanting eaf's to be good you still didnt change the fundamental thing that makes them all SUCK? their sig radius? litterly NOTHING has changed with these ships. they will still die to ANY battleship that looks at them funny


Yeah it's kind of like a 20m ISK frigate was never intended to be part of battleship fleet comps or something...


What CCP isn't getting here is that nobody is going to like balancing ships around the idea of "you know what's a good counter to these? Bring more of them!" and that's exactly what these EAFs are at least within their hull class. You've made frigate hulls that can shut down other ships from well outside every other frigates lock range let alone damage range, wtf is the counter to these ships other than "bring your own!" or sniper ships several classes above them? Give me a gang of ships heavily comped towards EAFs and I guarantee no similar sized frig/Dessie gang is going to have a chance in hell of winning that engagement unless they bring their own EAFs to counter my EAFs, and that's terrible balancing.



litterly anything will kill that gang. unless its all dreads even then an artillery dread will 1 shot a EAF CUZ THE SIG IS TOO DAMN HIGH

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#198 - 2013-10-04 06:46:57 UTC
Will you PLEASE STOP giving Gallente T2 frigate ONE STINKING DRONE?!?!

I'm very happy with the rest, but someone really needs to explain the 'logic' behind that decision - first the Helios, with its single drone that you wasted a bonus on, and now this?

What's the thinking here?
Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#199 - 2013-10-04 10:56:26 UTC
Why so little drones to Keres? Also Keres does not have enough mid-slots to fit both dampeners or disruptors, please choose something one.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#200 - 2013-10-04 11:10:38 UTC
Ok, these are a bit too powerful, please tone down the recon bonuses to halfway between current and recons (Keres point range 20% -> 15%).

Frigates are fundamentally superior to cruisers for these tasks due to their SP requirements, price, mobility, scan res and sig. Giving them equal bonuses just results in game-changing ships, and in this case the direction of change is not exactly desirable.

Nothing wrong with more and better ewar, but these are a tad insane as suggested.

.