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[Rubicon] New certifcates review

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#221 - 2013-11-19 16:03:39 UTC
why on lv4 mastery do you need multiple lv5 skills ? surely mastery lv5 should be the point of needing lv5 skills..
target management lv5, energy grid upgrades lv5 , cap management lv5 are hardly well needed skills to warrant inclusion at lv4

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#222 - 2013-11-19 16:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
also electronic warfare drone interfacing lv4 seems a bit high for mastery lv3 ... not many people train it bar for sentries really it should be a drone focused ship mastery lv4 and removed from non sentry drone ships like sansha ships... caldari ships etc..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#223 - 2013-11-19 21:40:20 UTC
i have amarr freighter mastery 5 but amarr freighter at lvl1 and adv spaceship command at 2. This can't be intended.

(its btw the only ship next to the shuttle i have at 5)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#224 - 2013-11-19 22:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
why does scout drones cert have electronic warfare and cpu management in it???
support/industrial/all combat drones certs has a bunch of non drone skills in it why???
drone certs should only include drone skills surely

mechanics is in armor reinforcement why exactly its a structure HP skill which should be renamed to make more sense really.
fighters cert has leadership lv5 why?
cloaking has mechanics why?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kane Fenris
NWP
#225 - 2013-11-20 07:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
after this thing went live i was quite ammused....

to me the correlation between how good you can utilize a ship and mastery lvl is quite low.
there are too much unneeded unimportant skills to have on a high lvl.

for me there should be followig improvements:

-redundant skills:
for example when a ship can either utilize torpedoes or cruise make it that you only need either or from lvl 1-4 and only both for 5
because everybody uses shps for specific stuff i could have perfect skills for what im useing the ship and still have mastery 1.... thats stupid to me.

-2nd row support skills:
reduce the lvls needed for more or less unimportant skills on mastery lvl 1-4
for example to havecertificate on lvl 3 you need the important skils on 3 and the rather less important skills only at 2 and so forth

this would create a better picture of what you can actually do.


[edit]
and kick skills that are not needed / have no effect on ships.
for example: why would i need capital ships skill to pilot a jump freighter?
(capital navigation)- > why would i need the capital ship skill for capital navigation it would be totally fine if i had the navigation skills but could not fly one. the ability to fly the ship should only be part of a hull centered mastery
Kamorain Dinard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2013-11-20 09:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamorain Dinard
Having just seen this today, I like the new certificate system but, there are a couple of odd requirements I've noticed.

The first is Jump Freighters requiring the Capital Navigation certificate. This means they need the Capital Ships skill for mastery despite it not having any effect on them (AFAIK since they don't require it to fly them and it's description says it only affects ships requiring it). The Battleship Navigation certificate seems to exist purely to make Battleships need Micro Jumpdrive Operation so, why not a separate certificate for Jump Freighters? There could be a Jumpdrive Support certificate requiring everything in Capital Navigation except Capital Ships.

The second thing I noticed is that the Support Drones certificates only require Shield Emission Systems and Remote Armor Repair at level 3 for mastery level 5. This is odd since the tech 2 shield and armor repair drones (which seems to be what these certificates are for) need level 4 in these skills.

I love ISIS and, I love that every ship has certificates recommended now. A button in ISIS to open a window with a list of the certificates, like on the character sheet, would be cool. Even better, it could be a page in ISIS like the pages for all the different faction ships and it could show what the certificates require at each level, without you having to open the certificate info.

Edit: Also, it seems like the skill that affect a ship: Amarr Battlecruisers and Command Ships for Amarr Command Ships for example, should be required for the levels of mastery so, you should need them at 5 for Mastery level 5 for that ship. Otherwise, the mastery level gives a very false picture since the bonuses from skills that ships have bonuses with are usually big.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#227 - 2013-11-20 12:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
after giveing it some thought....


i would strongly support that the mastery level sould be the rounded mean value of all relevant certifictes of a hull.

it should display how well youre at flying a hull.
now one could have all skills maxed for a certain hull but wont exced rank 2 or so cause you dont use and train amarr drones for example.

that just seems stupid to me and does fail to show the "mastery" you have over a ship as intended

useing a mean value (always rounded down so youll still need all V for mastery V) would solve this.

[Edit]
another point where the system fails is because of teh above stated reasons the system lures new players int skilling skills that the do not actually need to advance (quality wise) if they get under the impression the higher the mastery the better.
this may be a concern because one of the systems design goals as i understand it to have new players understand ships easier.
Alejandro Rebenga
#228 - 2013-11-20 21:06:28 UTC
I also remember a total of all the time needed to train for a certain certificate, adding up all the skills listed. Now its missing.. or misplaced maybe?
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#229 - 2013-11-20 23:26:48 UTC
Geralt Rittersporn wrote:
Add Advanced Spaceship Command to the freighter navigation certifcate and I think jump freighters don't require the capital ship skill.


Indeed, fixed. Also:


  • Removed WU and AWU from all industrials and any ship that doesn't have a certificate to turrets or missiles (like logistics, some disruption ships, carriers, ORE ships etc...).

  • Split Warfare Link certificate into 4 (one for Armored Warfare, Information Warfare, Siege Warfare and Skirmish Warfare) for better visibility. Command Ships now only require 2 of those for Masteries 1-4, but still all of them for Mastery V.

  • Renamed the "Black Ops Navigation" certificate into "Jump Drives", removed jump drive skills from the "Capital Navigation" certificate and added "Jump Drives" to capitals. It's clearer that way.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#230 - 2013-11-20 23:29:41 UTC
Kamorain Dinard wrote:
Having just seen this today, I like the new certificate system but, there are a couple of odd requirements I've noticed.

The first is Jump Freighters requiring the Capital Navigation certificate. This means they need the Capital Ships skill for mastery despite it not having any effect on them (AFAIK since they don't require it to fly them and it's description says it only affects ships requiring it). The Battleship Navigation certificate seems to exist purely to make Battleships need Micro Jumpdrive Operation so, why not a separate certificate for Jump Freighters? There could be a Jumpdrive Support certificate requiring everything in Capital Navigation except Capital Ships.

The second thing I noticed is that the Support Drones certificates only require Shield Emission Systems and Remote Armor Repair at level 3 for mastery level 5. This is odd since the tech 2 shield and armor repair drones (which seems to be what these certificates are for) need level 4 in these skills.

I love ISIS and, I love that every ship has certificates recommended now. A button in ISIS to open a window with a list of the certificates, like on the character sheet, would be cool. Even better, it could be a page in ISIS like the pages for all the different faction ships and it could show what the certificates require at each level, without you having to open the certificate info.

Edit: Also, it seems like the skill that affect a ship: Amarr Battlecruisers and Command Ships for Amarr Command Ships for example, should be required for the levels of mastery so, you should need them at 5 for Mastery level 5 for that ship. Otherwise, the mastery level gives a very false picture since the bonuses from skills that ships have bonuses with are usually big.


I'll have a look itno the Support Drones issue you mentioned when I have some time Smile
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#231 - 2013-11-20 23:30:13 UTC
Alejandro Rebenga wrote:
I also remember a total of all the time needed to train for a certain certificate, adding up all the skills listed. Now its missing.. or misplaced maybe?


Feedback noted, that is a nice addition indeed.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2013-11-21 00:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
Love the new certs, you guys did an excellent job. Lots of positive feedback from players that don't post to the forums as well.


I noticed that on many ships you need all 4 racial drone specializations for mastery. I think that's overkill and you should really only need the race of the ship for drones.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2013-11-21 00:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alejandro Rebenga wrote:
I also remember a total of all the time needed to train for a certain certificate, adding up all the skills listed. Now its missing.. or misplaced maybe?


Feedback noted, that is a nice addition indeed.


Time to next level of mastery would be nice, makes it easy to decide where to train next

or some kind of list for easy to achieve targets
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#234 - 2013-11-21 02:36:43 UTC
Eris requires missile skills in its certification.

Yaay!!!!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#235 - 2013-11-21 05:26:30 UTC
Lachesis
3 - lows
7 - mids
Has been extensively used as a shield ship for the majority of its existence in Eve, and even when damps were buffed again, still is completely viable and used in the role it had established.

None of the certificates include skills for invulnerability fields, hardeners, shield rigs, nothing. Not even for LVL 5 mastery.

And as an "exclusively armor tanked ship" with only 3 lowslots, the use of the rigslots to compensate for this would be pretty basic. Yet where are the armor rigging skills in the armor tanking certificate?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kaskane
Second Star
#236 - 2013-11-21 07:48:22 UTC
The Phoenix requires Gunnery at Mastery 3 but as far as i know the Phoenix does not use any Turrets and you only need Gunnery at 2 to train for the Siege Module.

Director of nExperience Industries Inc. located in Kaimon - The Citadel
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#237 - 2013-11-21 11:10:29 UTC
So....

How many people have the datacore cert?

I suspect it's next to none, if the screen shot I saw was accurate.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kamorain Dinard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2013-11-21 12:24:08 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


I'll have a look itno the Support Drones issue you mentioned when I have some time Smile


Awesome. Thanks :)
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-11-21 12:32:30 UTC
This maybe going a little too far but would it be possible to have a "Mastery" icon in the ship fitting window that shows your mastery of the fitted ship. This would only take into account the ship, the modules and the rigs fitted.

This way although overall mastery might not be level 5 for a Raven it could be if you're purely focused on Cruise missiles and have never trained Torps.

Then players can tell if they are efficient in a certain role
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#240 - 2013-11-21 13:36:28 UTC
the new core weapon fitting that has AWU and WU for some reason also has gunnery lv2 which makes no sense especially for a missile ship to need.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using