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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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None ofthe Above
#321 - 2013-10-02 18:40:43 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:

I am sorry, I read that as:

Ablooo bloo bloo, mean old high secc'ers might shoot at our nullbears while we take over their space.

Did I get that right?

you did not you sound like you need an eye exam and perhaps a neurological exam


Sorry, maybe I've been reading too many of your posse's troll posts and it's infected my brain.

Anyway, why the rush? Do we really need to have this clear path to take these Interbus COs? Why should someone be able to take down one of these and put up their own if they can't defend themselves from the irate locals who don't want them too?

Where is the competition on a level playing field?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#322 - 2013-10-02 18:41:01 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Green Gambit= wrote:

Even with the POCOs, there's no insistance that you get involved with PvP. You can pay RvB to clear a POCO so you can claim it for your corp. Then you can tax it!


Give me a fukken break. Maybe this is why hi-sec Industrialists don't want to deal with the nul-sec sociopathic crowd ...

what level of player interaction do you find acceptable in your vision of my little pony online the massively multiplayer singleplayer game

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#323 - 2013-10-02 18:41:54 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Aryth wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
Aryth wrote:


Yes actually. Given the level of income it would take to make us interested in a POCO for income purposes it is perfectly balanced to require a 500m wardec.. The strawman that OMG Goons are going to take every POCO is hilarious but not reality.

It is almost like wardec fees are likely to scale based on the income level of the POCOs being held. Shocking concept I know.


Amusingly, it's actually a strawman attack to bring up the strawman "that OMG Goons are going to take every POCO" with me, since that's not a claim I believe I ever made.

I have other concerns that I elucidated, and I believe are far more realistic.


Then your argument about wardec fees is pointless. Unless there are large entities holding some sizeable portion of highsec pocos, then arguing about their fees is a waste of time.


Either Goons and our max wardec fee is an issue because we will hold a lot of POCOs, or it isn't because we won't. Or other entities with max fees or close to it. (not many exist) If you agree that it isn't realistic then why are we even talking about max fees?


You've made it clear you will be grabbing some enough to engage in griefing even according to some of your members at least. Other entities like RvB have also stated plans. It's part of the discussion, why are you bothering to deny it?

If Goons don't find it worth their time, others will. This to me is not anti-goon discussion, it's a discussion about game mechanics.


I have not denied anything. As stated before, I was the one that developed the plans. But even those plans require less than 2% of highsec POCOS at most. Even that is a stretch and HIGHLY unlikely.

The game mechanics dictate that anyone big already has a fairly sizeable income stream thus far for their membership. That may not be alliance ISK and can take the form of membership ISK, but it is still income.

So mechanics dictate that the only mega entities holding POCOs will be ones that find it attractive to do so from either an income generation perspective or for PVP opportunities. Frankly there are better PVP generators for mega entities but some of this will occur. The ISK/RISK reward will have various cutoff points for corp/alliance sizes. But with the sheer # of planets in highsec/highsec islands it is not practical within the current game mechanics to hold a large portion.

People need sandcastles in EVE. PI has been a risk free wealth generator for quite some time now. We won't be the highsec PI boogeyman, but I sure hope a few dozen entities are. It will provide a natural progression path.

Highsec (PI,Decs) -> Lowsec (PVP,FW) -> WH (Small scale warfare, POS) -> Null (Large Scale warfare/SOV)

Will some people lose their risk free ISK machine? Yes
Will they be able to relocate and find an appropriate tax location? Yes
If anything people should be looking forward to taking some out of the way backwater POCO and setting their rate to 0% for their corp and charging others a modest tax. Why everyone is fixated on the Bloc/Alliance problem is beyond me.

Fixate on what happens in other scenarios, not that one.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#324 - 2013-10-02 18:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pirate's Bunny
CCP Paradox wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
CCP, why put npc tax on a player owned structure?


The tax is paid directly to CONCORD, for the structures protection in High-Sec. Compare with Low-Sec, no tax paid to CONCORD, no protection from CONCORD.

Players who invest time to train themselves in Customs Code Expertise will eventually be able to barter for better tax rates from CONCORD, though not eliminate them completely.



So Interbus is not protected by Concorde? The whole game logic is screwed for this.

I shoot another corp's stuff, I get flagged and maybe Concorde comes. - I shoot Interbus offices, all good, as if they would also give me a reward. How silly. I want to anchor something, can't, because my standing is bad. I just anchor some planetary office. Isn't that against the game mechanics?

I don't complain on your plans to nerf HiSec, since you always try to do this. But you should keep in mind that there are also some people just for the fun of it playing eve in HiSec without any interest for big alliances and their war crap. And this are mostly newer players and care bears. And you forgot the most important part, they also pay their monthly account fee. If you want a real pvp game, just delete HiSec, make all 0.0-0.4 and fine is. Maybe then you notice that you might lose some players. Eve is not only big alliances!
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2013-10-02 19:01:54 UTC
Highsec is not being nerfed as this transfers the money from POCO customs fees from NPCs to players.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#326 - 2013-10-02 19:06:43 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Highsec is not being nerfed as this transfers the money from POCO customs fees from NPCs to players.


It doesn't transfer it, it takes more and gives it to player, npc tax is still on it.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#327 - 2013-10-02 19:19:02 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Give me a fukken break. Maybe this is why hi-sec Industrialists don't want to deal with the nul-sec sociopathic crowd ...


Never lived in null-sec, never been part of a null-sec alliance. I've visited null-sec, for sure, but as things stand at the moment I wouldn't want to live there.

Sorry for wanting a game that actually challenges me, and rewards me for using my brains.

If you want something that's simply "press button get reward" then I suggest that Eve Online isn't the game for you.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2013-10-02 19:20:37 UTC
Pirate's Bunny wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
Highsec is not being nerfed as this transfers the money from POCO customs fees from NPCs to players.


It doesn't transfer it, it takes more and gives it to player, npc tax is still on it.


There's a fairly small tax for the NPCs to prevent 0% havens and to guarantee lowsec POCOs are superior, but the gist of it is players now have the power to collect the bulk of the POCO transfer tax.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
None ofthe Above
#329 - 2013-10-02 19:22:48 UTC
Aryth wrote:

I have not denied anything. As stated before, I was the one that developed the plans. But even those plans require less than 2% of highsec POCOS at most. Even that is a stretch and HIGHLY unlikely.

The game mechanics dictate that anyone big already has a fairly sizeable income stream thus far for their membership. That may not be alliance ISK and can take the form of membership ISK, but it is still income.

So mechanics dictate that the only mega entities holding POCOs will be ones that find it attractive to do so from either an income generation perspective or for PVP opportunities. Frankly there are better PVP generators for mega entities but some of this will occur. The ISK/RISK reward will have various cutoff points for corp/alliance sizes. But with the sheer # of planets in highsec/highsec islands it is not practical within the current game mechanics to hold a large portion.

People need sandcastles in EVE. PI has been a risk free wealth generator for quite some time now. We won't be the highsec PI boogeyman, but I sure hope a few dozen entities are. It will provide a natural progression path.

Highsec (PI,Decs) -> Lowsec (PVP,FW) -> WH (Small scale warfare, POS) -> Null (Large Scale warfare/SOV)

Will some people lose their risk free ISK machine? Yes
Will they be able to relocate and find an appropriate tax location? Yes
If anything people should be looking forward to taking some out of the way backwater POCO and setting their rate to 0% for their corp and charging others a modest tax. Why everyone is fixated on the Bloc/Alliance problem is beyond me.

Fixate on what happens in other scenarios, not that one.



A wide variety of scenarios need to be examined, people "fixate" on the large alliance scenarios when talking to you because you are guiding the efforts of one, and your "nothing to see here; move along" line is utterly unconvincing.

So you are looking at only 2% of all POCOs to suit your purposes? Yay. So you want to create local monopolies of certain types of planets. Nothing to see here; move along. Riiiiight.

It's worth looking at these systems when a cartel forms that coordinates actions over a significant enough of these resources, don't you think? Or should we just ignore the lessons of technetium?

This should definitely one of the areas considered for ANY feature of EVE Online.

But by all means, champion any other concerns. Your analysis is likely to by highly valued.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Adunh Slavy
#330 - 2013-10-02 19:32:22 UTC
Who needs more PI products, high sec or null? Notice I said need, not want.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
None ofthe Above
#331 - 2013-10-02 19:40:20 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Who needs more PI products, high sec or null? Notice I said need, not want.

Sig: Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

I love the confluence between your sig and your post.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#332 - 2013-10-02 19:52:36 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Aryth wrote:

I have not denied anything. As stated before, I was the one that developed the plans. But even those plans require less than 2% of highsec POCOS at most. Even that is a stretch and HIGHLY unlikely.

The game mechanics dictate that anyone big already has a fairly sizeable income stream thus far for their membership. That may not be alliance ISK and can take the form of membership ISK, but it is still income.

So mechanics dictate that the only mega entities holding POCOs will be ones that find it attractive to do so from either an income generation perspective or for PVP opportunities. Frankly there are better PVP generators for mega entities but some of this will occur. The ISK/RISK reward will have various cutoff points for corp/alliance sizes. But with the sheer # of planets in highsec/highsec islands it is not practical within the current game mechanics to hold a large portion.

People need sandcastles in EVE. PI has been a risk free wealth generator for quite some time now. We won't be the highsec PI boogeyman, but I sure hope a few dozen entities are. It will provide a natural progression path.

Highsec (PI,Decs) -> Lowsec (PVP,FW) -> WH (Small scale warfare, POS) -> Null (Large Scale warfare/SOV)

Will some people lose their risk free ISK machine? Yes
Will they be able to relocate and find an appropriate tax location? Yes
If anything people should be looking forward to taking some out of the way backwater POCO and setting their rate to 0% for their corp and charging others a modest tax. Why everyone is fixated on the Bloc/Alliance problem is beyond me.

Fixate on what happens in other scenarios, not that one.



A wide variety of scenarios need to be examined, people "fixate" on the large alliance scenarios when talking to you because you are guiding the efforts of one, and your "nothing to see here; move along" line is utterly unconvincing.

So you are looking at only 2% of all POCOs to suit your purposes? Yay. So you want to create local monopolies of certain types of planets. Nothing to see here; move along. Riiiiight.

It's worth looking at these systems when a cartel forms that coordinates actions over a significant enough of these resources, don't you think? Or should we just ignore the lessons of technetium?

This should definitely one of the areas considered for ANY feature of EVE Online.

But by all means, champion any other concerns. Your analysis is likely to by highly valued.


If you learned anything from technetium, or half a dozen other instances where either I personally, or we collectively carteled/profited/manipulated/griefed, it is that I just give you the straight truth. You can choose not to accept that truth and then wait for the after action evidence to prove it out. But in all things both myself and Mynnna speak the truth. This isn't out of some benevolence towards the individuals of EVE just because if you stack the deck enough well, it is funnier to just play the game out after calling the ball if you will.

No mega entities are going to cartel highsec POCOS. You can run the #'s yourself and decide if it would be practical or not. We have, it isn't. The most efficient paths to impact the PI market do not require that. The effort to even attempt that method would demand the most complex undertaking in all of EVE's history. Equivalent to grinding all stations in null, a few times over. That effort would be far better spent carteling other areas of the game.

I am not concerned about the other areas that our plans touch on as they will provide content for EVE and probably some good marketing for CCP. However, I expected a lot better tinfoil from the EVE community at this point than the OMG BLOBS are coming. Or the OMG CARTEL. If you listed out the top dozen or so possible cartels in EVE, and ranked them by ISK/EFFORT ratio, highsec POCOS would be at the bottom of the list as a whole.

This is not to say the choice pieces of meat are not worth it. Those represent a very small portion of the total though. Easily avoided by anyone that chooses to do so.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Drayzon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2013-10-02 20:10:03 UTC
Fail!!!
NPC tax?
Keeping lowsec competitive?
Is there any reason to remain in highsec?
I understand that many players love to fight PvP, but some of us just like to chill, help others, and make passive income to support new players, without getting into the politics of PvP. What happened to being able to just do anything, anywhere? Now if you want to remain competitive in the game, you must at least play in lowsec or null, and hope you dont get blown to bits for doing so. Who will remain to help those new to the game in High sec? How can anyone afford to? I see alot of new players joining, for only 14 days, and quitting thinking there is no way for them to grow. I rarely play anymore, and when I do, I hear the common complaint about how being new is so unfair. 5 accounts are about to go bye-bye because of this insane push to move everyone to low or null sec.Attention
Reachok
Doomheim
#334 - 2013-10-02 22:37:35 UTC
When you state in the DB that the NPC tax will remain in place to keep low sec pocos competitive, does this mean there are a lot of low sec pocos in play? Considering that high sec PI returns substantially less product than null sec I must assume then that low sec PI must be on par with high sec PI. Else the reduced yield of high sec PI would negate the need for continuation of the NPC tax on anything except Interbus POCO's.

The bad guys went the other way, seriously....
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#335 - 2013-10-02 22:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
CCP Paradox wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?


No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.



Wait...no suspect flag for shooting the interbus COs? Rethink that you're taking out 3/4 of the fun for the first few weeks after release.

Will we get a suspect flag for repping the NPC office?
None ofthe Above
#336 - 2013-10-02 23:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Aryth wrote:

If you learned anything from technetium, or half a dozen other instances where either I personally, or we collectively carteled/profited/manipulated/griefed, it is that I just give you the straight truth. You can choose not to accept that truth and then wait for the after action evidence to prove it out. But in all things both myself and Mynnna speak the truth. This isn't out of some benevolence towards the individuals of EVE just because if you stack the deck enough well, it is funnier to just play the game out after calling the ball if you will.

No mega entities are going to cartel highsec POCOS. You can run the #'s yourself and decide if it would be practical or not. We have, it isn't. The most efficient paths to impact the PI market do not require that. The effort to even attempt that method would demand the most complex undertaking in all of EVE's history. Equivalent to grinding all stations in null, a few times over. That effort would be far better spent carteling other areas of the game.

I am not concerned about the other areas that our plans touch on as they will provide content for EVE and probably some good marketing for CCP. However, I expected a lot better tinfoil from the EVE community at this point than the OMG BLOBS are coming. Or the OMG CARTEL. If you listed out the top dozen or so possible cartels in EVE, and ranked them by ISK/EFFORT ratio, highsec POCOS would be at the bottom of the list as a whole.

This is not to say the choice pieces of meat are not worth it. Those represent a very small portion of the total though. Easily avoided by anyone that chooses to do so.


I do actually have a lot respect for yourself and Mynnna as well as several of your colleagues. I read what you say and do tend to believe what you say is a truth that you want to tell, from your perspective. It may not be the whole truth, or may not be something that is true for all. I can more easily accept it when my own reason and logic can confirm yours. Hopefully you'll forgive me though for not taking what you say as gospel and shutting down the critical thinking part of my brain.

I consider the source and read between the lines. For example, what you call "good marketing for CCP" usually means a really bad day for someone else. Now I am all for emergent game play, but while you might be thrilled to pull off something got in the news and raised a furor, and caused a mass unsub, that may or may not actually be a net gain for the rest of the community or even CCP.

All this is telling me, along with my own analysis and posters besides yourself, that there is reason to be concerned, in spite or perhaps even because of your efforts to urgently convince us otherwise.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#337 - 2013-10-02 23:58:14 UTC
Drayzon wrote:
Who will remain to help those new to the game in High sec?


hopefully not baddies who just tell newbies that they can mine their way to riches

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#338 - 2013-10-03 00:05:40 UTC
Drayzon wrote:
Fail!!!
NPC tax?
Keeping lowsec competitive?
Is there any reason to remain in highsec?
I understand that many players love to fight PvP, but some of us just like to chill, help others, and make passive income to support new players, without getting into the politics of PvP. What happened to being able to just do anything, anywhere? Now if you want to remain competitive in the game, you must at least play in lowsec or null, and hope you dont get blown to bits for doing so. Who will remain to help those new to the game in High sec? How can anyone afford to? I see alot of new players joining, for only 14 days, and quitting thinking there is no way for them to grow. I rarely play anymore, and when I do, I hear the common complaint about how being new is so unfair. 5 accounts are about to go bye-bye because of this insane push to move everyone to low or null sec.Attention


Yeah, the "I just want to help newbies never enjoy themselves and quit the game" crowd is exactly who this targets. You are a cancer on Eve, and all of these changes are meant to excise you almost exclusively.

Bye.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2013-10-03 00:25:50 UTC
Reachok wrote:
When you state in the DB that the NPC tax will remain in place to keep low sec pocos competitive, does this mean there are a lot of low sec pocos in play? Considering that high sec PI returns substantially less product than null sec I must assume then that low sec PI must be on par with high sec PI. Else the reduced yield of high sec PI would negate the need for continuation of the NPC tax on anything except Interbus POCO's.


As far as yield goes, I was surprised at how decent Lowsec planets can be. There is pretty fair risk vs. reward built into that, and it really would be detrimental for Hisec PI to unbalance one of the few bones to Lowsec life I've seen CCP throw out there. 0% tax, Zero risk PI wouldn't be healthy for Eve.
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#340 - 2013-10-03 01:34:21 UTC
Great stuff guys, hilarious thread full of rage and speculation.

I think the wardec mechanic - allowing large alliances to protect their POCOs with war fees - is counter productive. All HS POCOs might be better with a universal criminal timer for attacking them - knocking down a POCO takes a wee bit of effort anyway, with 24 hour reinforcement, so they should be fairly easy to defend without a wardec. That would create more GFs, imho.

People fearful of Goons taking over all the POCOs have missed a trick. Along with an Al-Qaeda-esque goal of re-establishing the Caliphate, Goon long-term goals include upsetting POS operations. We all know they do this by attacking specific vulnerabilities in the POS fuel supply chain - i.e. ganking ice miners. This new POCO mechanic facilitates the Goons taking over a lot of the Plasma planets, and that will create considerable volatility in the POS fuel market.

If you want Goon kills, I'd suggest hanging out around Plasma planet systems for the week after patch. Blink