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So Hybrids..... changes enough?
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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-11-01 22:15:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:


Well, the minmatar got the face-melting with that hail-buff.
So at least someone will be able to use that tactic.

Is someone actually surprised that this someone will be the minmatar and not the gallente?Pirate


CCP logic, Volume 94.

Problem - AC boats are better than blasterboats at being blasterboats, thanks to being faster and more agile and doing similar applied DPS.
Solution - buff Hail.
Result - fewer pliots fly Gallente, hence fewer complaints. See T1 cruisers, tier 1 BCs, Eagle, Deimos and shield capitals for previous successes of this strategy. Straight

What did u expect they are ccp after all , wont change overnight. same **** as was , just a new fake "we care " slogen
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-11-02 00:32:32 UTC
Yeah, I've got to say:

The announcement of a hybrid fix got me excited.
The first leaked/announced bits of information tainted my excitement a bit, but left me hopeful.
Everything since then has made me just as jaded as before.

I'm still somewhat excited for the winter expansion, but i'm no longer fantasizing about dusting off my hyrbid ships.
Alexandria Aesirial
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2011-11-02 06:05:46 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


The problem is that hybrids have well-defined roles, while lasers and ACs are too flexible, too good in too many situations. Now, you can boost hybrids by making them more flexible too, but you just end up with homogenised weapons, and everybody knows that this is bad. But the only alternative is to nerf lasers and ACs, to stop them encroaching on and usurping hybrids' roles.


While your opinion makes a bit of sense, it doesn't really make sense at all. The act of giving weapon systems clearly defined roles will make the game even worse than it is now. What is the use of using any other weapon system if one is clearly better than the rest?
A solution to the problem would be to give fall off or optimal range bonuses to hybrid ammo and it shouldn't be over the top as the current changes to tracking makes hybrids more viable for close range engagements. I'd wait until the changes are implemented before saying it's not enough.

It's only blobbing when you lose, otherwise it's good fleet comp.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#44 - 2011-11-02 06:21:46 UTC
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2011-11-02 07:39:19 UTC
People seem to assume that all fights somehow magically start outside blaster range, that probing+dropping **** is only viable against snipers.

Also people somehow forget damage types (Hail? Explosivelol :D and besides a weak damage type, it is far from facemelting dps) and the fact that blasters blatantly outdps ACs in close range (<5km) with all ammo combinations. AC dps is not "similar", it's 20% less. Currently tracking difference between T2 Ions and 220s is 0,014.


The hybrid buffs seem to go a long way in fixing the most important issues of blaster boats:

1) Normal fitting requirements: Blaster boats will no longer be glasscannons, they can fit a decent tank. Together with increased speed and agility, this means they don't die before applying their dps.

2) Improved tracking means blasters outdamage ACs by even a wider margin in close range combat, and that blaster boats can use a range-scripted Tracking Computer to extend the wtfpwnzomgrange.


.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-11-02 08:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Roime wrote:
People seem to assume that all fights somehow magically start outside blaster range, that probing+dropping **** is only viable against snipers.


And if they are moving you STILL have to run down a likely faster ship that has a head start on you. Because last time I checked come to damn near a full stop before you can trigger prop mods and such, not to mention time to get the ship turned and give chase, so if they weren't on the MWD already they just overheated it as soon as you dropped into their safe spot.

Roime wrote:

Also people somehow forget damage types (Hail? Explosivelol :D and besides a weak damage type, it is far from facemelting dps) and the fact that blasters blatantly outdps ACs in close range (<5km) with all ammo combinations. AC dps is not "similar", it's 20% less. Currently tracking difference between T2 Ions and 220s is 0,014.


Only weak against shield tankers, armor tankers have a pretty decent hole to fill with a native 20%

Roime wrote:



1) Normal fitting requirements: Blaster boats will no longer be glasscannons, they can fit a decent tank. Together with increased speed and agility, this means they don't die before applying their dps.


Depends, for Gallente it doesn't change a lot because you are still either adding 1600mm plates on everything over a cruiser or fitting two or more active rigs (or both) and you cutting your speed considerably by adding mass and rig penalties.

That isn't going to change because they made the Brutix go 20m/s faster.

Shield gank set-ups got a boost, so its not all bad, but I don't see it changing trying to fit Gallente cruisers like a nano-canes without the speed or range to kite.


Roime wrote:

2) Improved tracking means blasters outdamage ACs by even a wider margin in close range combat, and that blaster boats can use a range-scripted Tracking Computer to extend the wtfpwnzomgrange.



I dunno if you ever fit that up, but medium neutron blasters with Null + scripted TC hits for 18km at essentially 1/9 (33% of faction AM time 1/3 DPS due to being past falloff) So you your 600DPS paper Brutix is doing about 75 DPS best case


Where a nano-cane pilot is going to see you coming, load barrage and chill out at 20km (ish) and you STILL won't be fast enough to catch him, unless you outskill (SP skill), have better implants, or he fucks up.

...likeise the Mrym is still the answer to the )(@#%@#%@ drake, but that is on tank, not any hybrid boost. On a myrm, its still going to be more advantageous to fit 425mm ACs for plated fits and 220s for active, no cap, better range, better damage selection.

Its a start, but I still won't be flying blasters exclusively anytime soon.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2011-11-02 08:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
damn forums
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-11-02 08:30:17 UTC
Roime wrote:
People seem to assume that all fights somehow magically start outside blaster range, that probing+dropping **** is only viable against snipers.

Also people somehow forget damage types (Hail? Explosivelol :D and besides a weak damage type, it is far from facemelting dps) and the fact that blasters blatantly outdps ACs in close range (<5km) with all ammo combinations. AC dps is not "similar", it's 20% less. Currently tracking difference between T2 Ions and 220s is 0,014.

The hybrid buffs seem to go a long way in fixing the most important issues of blaster boats:

1) Normal fitting requirements: Blaster boats will no longer be glasscannons, they can fit a decent tank. Together with increased speed and agility, this means they don't die before applying their dps.

2) Improved tracking means blasters outdamage ACs by even a wider margin in close range combat, and that blaster boats can use a range-scripted Tracking Computer to extend the wtfpwnzomgrange.




Explosive is the best damage type to use against armour, and effective against all T2 resists apart from Amarr. I know it feels like everyone's flying shield Canes or Drakes these days, but I wouldn't call it a weak damage type.

AC DPS is similar once you realise that you're flying a ship, not a gun. This means that the AC user is able to semi-choose damage type, an ability most valuable in the small-scale fights where blasters, because of lack of range and poor ability to get into range, should be superior, and that his ship is generally shield-tanked and has abundant slots for gyros. Shield-tanking a blasterboat is certainly possible, but the cap vulnerability presents a strong case for a cap booster, cutting down on the already generally fewer medslots available to blasterboats, relative to AC platforms.

Tank isn't the main problem on blasterboats, and even if it was, increasing it doesn't give blasters a role when ACs do their job at close range about as well. To have a role, they need a DPS advantage close up that is so great that there is no feeling that you can get away with using AC or Pulse in that position - because you certainly can't get away with using blasters in Pulse or AC's realms.

Tracking computer? All that does is make blasters a step towards being really bad ACs. It doesn't make them competitive with ACs or Pulse, and it doesn't give the blasterboat the ability to get into range anyway.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2011-11-02 10:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Onictus wrote:


And if they are moving you STILL have to run down a likely faster ship that has a head start on you. Because last time I checked come to damn near a full stop before you can trigger prop mods and such, not to mention time to get the ship turned and give chase, so if they weren't on the MWD already they just overheated it as soon as you dropped into their safe spot.


A good prober will try to drop the fleet in a spot where target will be when the wrecking crew lands. Also, in w-space most fights happen on holes, where ships spawn inside 5km. Of course, catching a faster ship in a slower ship does not turn out good for blasters, but not every encounter unfolds like that.

Quote:
Only weak against shield tankers, armor tankers have a pretty decent hole to fill with a native 20%


And weakest against any armor tank that plugs the explosive hole, which is pretty much standard procedure.

Quote:
Depends, for Gallente it doesn't change a lot because you are still either adding 1600mm plates on everything over a cruiser or fitting two or more active rigs (or both) and you cutting your speed considerably by adding mass and rig penalties.


Well yes, but the buff still applies and makes the blaster ships a bit faster. What if blaster boats would be fastest? Best dps and nobody could escape? Yep, OP. So improving their speed a bit is the only way to proceed, I think only time will tell if the proposed numbers are enough, as new ship properties give birth to new tactics.


Quote:
dunno if you ever fit that up, but medium neutron blasters with Null + scripted TC hits for 18km at essentially 1/9 (33% of faction AM time 1/3 DPS due to being past falloff) So you your 600DPS paper Brutix is doing about 75 DPS best case

Where a nano-cane pilot is going to see you coming, load barrage and chill out at 20km (ish) and you STILL won't be fast enough to catch him, unless you outskill (SP skill), have better implants, or he fucks up.


I don't disagree with this strawman. Absolutely true, close-range brawling is not the counter to kiting in the situation you describe. Of course, in a situation where the Brutix lands at 1km and scrams that nano-Cane, outcome will be very different. A shield gank Brutix has both moar gank and tank under 7,5km.

.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-11-02 10:47:40 UTC
Thus far there is nothing to support that.

I'm not saying make missile myrms that can keep up with Brutix's, but without a significant speed advantage you are back to stations and gate (and holes)

I think the Brutix may make #2 as far as t1/t2 BCs, but its not going to be setting the world of fire.

Talos....I don't have any idea without the web bonus, I'm having a a hard time with application at all now.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-11-02 11:01:26 UTC
Can't really say that this is what I expected 3 years after CCP put the final nail into the blaster pvp coffin. I can't see that CCP starts reconsidering close range pvp overall and adjust blaster hulls directly, work on the scram/web design or changes the tracking formula.

Overall it might be very nice for frigs, but don't changes things for the larger hulls.
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