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So Hybrids..... changes enough?

Author
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2011-11-01 02:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Calapine wrote:

  • Slightly reduce the TE falloff bonus. (for example from 30% down to 25-20%)
  • Again, slightly, reduce pulse tracking and reduce scorch DPS. Currently scorch simply obsoletes 2/3 of faction crystals.
  • Apply the 10% damage buff from Rails to Blasters as well. Don't touch range or falloff, to avoid the mentioned homogenization of weapon systems.
  • Additionally keep the already announced changes. (Speed buff, agility, fitting)


  • 1) TE bonus should be to tracking only - it should never have gotten the Falloff bonus. The only reason it got the falloff bonus was because TDs got the Falloff and optimal bonus with the scripts and people cried. i, and others, argued that a universal answer to a spacific problem that added another damage mod to ACs in particular was broken. the proof is in the math.

    2) If pulse tracking and scortch are to be nufed, then I think pulse also deserve a major cap and fitting reduction too. Again, look at what you sacrifice to fit them. I have perfect Amarr skills (ofc I do) and I still need to use ACRs to fit FMPs on cruisers and battlecruiers. . . and don't get me started on how each volley takes away massive amounts of cap or what a single small or medium neut can do to end me in a fight. I cannot stress how many negative aspects there are with lazers. As it stands, many amarr pilots still fit ACs. . .ACs are that good.

    3) Ok, more blaster damage. . .

    4) ofc.

    I honestly think that ACs have surpassed blasters as the premier close range gun. They are super flexible, do fantastic damage that ramps up nicely through falloff, no cap, and practically no fitting. When I fit a mini ship, I fit the guns last. When I fit an Amarr ship, I fit the guns first. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree with scorch.

    - - Its funny really. there was a major HP buff not so long ago, and here we are buffing everything back up again. It used to be like so: Blasters - when they were in range, were going to melt you. But the MWD for a Gellente ship was a one way ticket. ACs sucked - but that is why Mini have 2/3 wepon systems on ALL of their ships and have the fastest ones. ACs were just there to add to the entire dps package from all the weapon systems AND they still did less damage overall then any of the other 3 even with max skills. but they were quick - and if flown smart - could dictate the fight. . .that is huge and thats why they were considered the hardest - high skill character requirements/high player skill requirements. Caldari were boring, but long-range and pure damage types and no tracking to deal with.

    What we have now is - ACs are balanced to the other 3 races, while keeping all their previous damage reduction and escape traits - Mini have become the easiest race to fly because you turn on your guns as soon as you have the lock . Amarr melt faces for a few mins before capping out. And caldari are still long range and boring - but now have massive tanks.

    But I stand by the fact that it was ACs that userped the Blasters role, not scorch lazors.
    To mare
    Advanced Technology
    #22 - 2011-11-01 03:11:17 UTC
    Calapine wrote:

    1) TE bonus should be to tracking only - it should never have gotten the Falloff bonus. The only reason it got the falloff bonus was because TDs got the Falloff and optimal bonus with the scripts and people cried. i, and others, argued that a universal answer to a spacific problem that added another damage mod to ACs in particular was broken. the proof is in the math.


    2)But I stand by the fact that it was ACs that userped the Blasters role, not scorch lazors.


    1) TC got the falloff bonus at the same time of TE, before the boost the optimal scipt only gave optimal range. i might agree with you that a 30% is too much but already is done, take it away and you will see the forum full of crap post like when they nerfed nanos (and idk if CCP in this not really good moment want more unsatisfied customersLol)
    2)Laser do more damage than AC at short range and the only AC ships that will confortably step in the web range with a blaster ship are the armored one like the 1600 rupture or the 1600 hurricane and if blaster get the fitting reduction allowing the ship to fit some tank it wont be that easy any more. all the other minmatar ships would stay the hell away from the web range of a blaster ship and that range they surely dont do impressive dps
    Calapine
    Xeno Tech Corp
    #23 - 2011-11-01 03:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Calapine
    To mare wrote:
    the neutron mega will be still able to fit tank & neutrons, but compared to the actual mega you wont have to choose between large cap booster and large neut because you will be able to fit both, plus with the tracking boost of blaster and ship bonus you can use void and still have more tracking than the average BS for a very good damage.
    the deimos will be finally able to fit a full rack of neutrons and a 800mm plate w/o any fitting mods or even a 1600 plate and a mix of 3/4ions and 1/2 electrons wich is good (plus the speed/agi bonus help on this), now the problem with deimos its you probably dont wann go in short range with a hac but it have a really damn good tank/gank ratio.

    oh and TC/TE buff affect blaster as well even if less than projectile. and its not like that minmatar boats have more slot to fit TE/TC than blaster ships


    Well, we disagree on what a reasonable improvement is then.

    I have never found the medium cap booster an issue on a buffer tanked ship with a single neut/remote rep. I doubt most people who will face off against a Mega post-expansion will notice something has changed.

    Re Void: A Mega-Pulse Apoc outdamages a Neutron-Void Mega past 10.5km...that is well within overheated-web range, the supposed domain and niche of blasters.

    Re Deimos: Being able to fit a 800mm plate without fitting mods on a 100m ISK T2 HAC that just got buffed is hardly an achievement to brag about. The 1600mm plate Rupture would like to say Hi as well.

    Cala

    Pain is short, and joy is eternal.

    Barbelo Valentinian
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #24 - 2011-11-01 03:19:56 UTC
    Note some ppl are saying Gal agility boost - I thought it was an agility nerf and the agility boost was just early misunderstanding? Clarification?
    Calapine
    Xeno Tech Corp
    #25 - 2011-11-01 03:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Calapine
    Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
    Note some ppl are saying Gal agility boost - I thought it was an agility nerf and the agility boost was just early misunderstanding? Clarification?


    The data pulled from the test server indicated an agility nerf, as the inertia modifier got higher. However in the most recent devblog and the accompanying thread CCP Tallest did indeed state that Gallente ships will be more agile not less.

    Cala

    Edit: Link to Dev Statement

    Pain is short, and joy is eternal.

    Desudes
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #26 - 2011-11-01 03:50:31 UTC
    Enough changes to change things, thus allowing for more balancing actions later.

    Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

    Baneken
    Arctic Light Inc.
    Arctic Light
    #27 - 2011-11-01 06:21:23 UTC
    Well at least hype will have some use in PvE not that it has roughly 2,5K more grid to fit 425mm rails, not that grid is really as much a problem as the CPU also navy domi is going to be a beast, not to mention extra neut with guns on vanilla Domi.
    My PvP mega has 0,2 CPU left in it's current fittings and that's after CPU mod. RollShocked
    Thaddaus Dieneces
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #28 - 2011-11-01 06:50:25 UTC
    As the Daredevil is already king of Frigates, the new hybrid fix will make it even better, can't wait. Do wish they'd leave the dramiel be though

    Stupid people should suffer, I'm OK with that.

    Wyke Mossari
    Staner Industries
    #29 - 2011-11-01 10:38:48 UTC

    High hopes for Blaster Proteus, it will probably have a great role for breaking gate camps.
    Fronkfurter McSheebleton
    Horse Feathers
    CAStabouts
    #30 - 2011-11-01 11:51:18 UTC
    Wyke Mossari wrote:

    High hopes for Blaster Proteus, it will probably have a great role for breaking gate camps.

    Agreed. I'd like to see what a hybrid fitted tengu will do now, too.

    thhief ghabmoef

    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #31 - 2011-11-01 12:21:32 UTC
    Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
    Wyke Mossari wrote:

    High hopes for Blaster Proteus, it will probably have a great role for breaking gate camps.

    Agreed. I'd like to see what a hybrid fitted tengu will do now, too.


    Yes, shiney in point range.

    Please.
    Barbelo Valentinian
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #32 - 2011-11-01 12:51:54 UTC
    Calapine wrote:
    Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
    Note some ppl are saying Gal agility boost - I thought it was an agility nerf and the agility boost was just early misunderstanding? Clarification?


    The data pulled from the test server indicated an agility nerf, as the inertia modifier got higher. However in the most recent devblog and the accompanying thread CCP Tallest did indeed state that Gallente ships will be more agile not less.

    Cala

    Edit: Link to Dev Statement


    Nice! Tyvm.
    Jerick Ludhowe
    Internet Tuff Guys
    #33 - 2011-11-01 13:25:23 UTC
    What ccp seems to be missing is that blasters and even rail guns are one trZick ponies. While it may seem to make sense to balance the game based on theoretical eft numbers the truth is far from this failed concept. Blasters sacrifice everything imaginable compared to other weapons systems for a tiny dps advantage at a range that is almost never even achievable, WTF??

    What blasters need is flexibility, not some failed pigeon holed role that has not worked since 2006... If you're going to make these ships one trick ponies that fight at a range where escape is almost impossible then they are going to need some rather strong advantages, especially when these ships are toted as "solo/small gang ships".... At the moment the true solo ships of the game are the same ships you see blowing up the kill boards... You guessed it, matari/angel ships... I'm not even going to get into the reasons why as i'd just be insulting you all at this point. We all know there is a fundamental flaw in how Blaster ships work and a simple change to fitting requirements, speed, and tracking will not change anything outside of making them a tiny bit better at a role that is already doomed to fail from concept.

    Radical slot layout changes, and a total paradigm shift of Gallente combat philosophy is require to get this race working again... Time for you to stop being stubborn here CCP... You're original idea has failed years ago and it's time to act like a professional game development company and get your game competently balanced.
    Zendon Taredi
    Tier Four Technologies
    #34 - 2011-11-01 13:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendon Taredi
    i dont see a role for blasters/rails. it would be better to just take them out of the game. give them more drone boats!
    Manc
    Fraternity Alliance Please Ignore
    #35 - 2011-11-01 14:04:11 UTC
    I am unaffected by the content of this thread.
    Gary Goat
    XDC-UK
    #36 - 2011-11-01 15:03:09 UTC
    Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
    What ccp seems to be missing is that blasters and even rail guns are one trZick ponies. While it may seem to make sense to balance the game based on theoretical eft numbers the truth is far from this failed concept. Blasters sacrifice everything imaginable compared to other weapons systems for a tiny dps advantage at a range that is almost never even achievable, WTF??

    What blasters need is flexibility, not some failed pigeon holed role that has not worked since 2006... If you're going to make these ships one trick ponies that fight at a range where escape is almost impossible then they are going to need some rather strong advantages, especially when these ships are toted as "solo/small gang ships".... At the moment the true solo ships of the game are the same ships you see blowing up the kill boards... You guessed it, matari/angel ships... I'm not even going to get into the reasons why as i'd just be insulting you all at this point. We all know there is a fundamental flaw in how Blaster ships work and a simple change to fitting requirements, speed, and tracking will not change anything outside of making them a tiny bit better at a role that is already doomed to fail from concept.

    Radical slot layout changes, and a total paradigm shift of Gallente combat philosophy is require to get this race working again... Time for you to stop being stubborn here CCP... You're original idea has failed years ago and it's time to act like a professional game development company and get your game competently balanced.



    I agree with the rework of gallente ships but i dont think that blasters need flexibility. If you want that, go fly minmatar because its what they do. Blasters should be limited by their appaling range but they payoff should be ungodly DPS if you do get into range .At the moment blasters do "marginally more dps" once you are in range which is the real issue.

    Give them more damage! And a lot more at that! Then nerf nulls damage to insure that you can still use blasters at longer range but they wont really be any more effective then todays blasters.
    Cambarus
    The Baros Syndicate
    #37 - 2011-11-01 15:21:31 UTC
    Ruah Piskonit wrote:

    1) Agility on Blaster boats is being reduced - as it should be tbh - Minmatar are the fastest in the straight, Gallente get to speed faster.
    TBH it seems rather absurd that you would NOT make the guys with the shortest range also be the fastest, but with the mindset of minmatar = fast having been around for so long, it would be insane to change that now. There are other ways to balance blasters mind you, but what CCP have done so far is at best mediocre.
    Ruah Piskonit wrote:

    2) 200% is a lot. and thats the base stats. Pulse is only good with scorch and the fitting/cap use for them are major disadvantages. ACs are too good - but thats because the TE is a second damage mod and the ammo changes should have been for hybrids and not for projectiles.

    200% of what? The only time you see a difference that high when comparing blasters to pulses is if you're looking at the things that pulses do well, a couple numbers pulled from a post I made a while ago (pre-buff):
    Ignoring the geddon vs mega comparison that I've done to death already, here's a quick look at a neutron blaster cannon II vs a MPL II. No ammo or ship bonuses, just the raw stats:

    ~17% more DPS on blasters.
    ~333% More range on pulses (not even counting the absurdity that is scorch)
    ~28% more raw tracking on blasters
    ~260% better tracking in optimal for pulses.

    ACs aren't too good, there is still a myriad of uses for the amarrian ships of damn near every type and size, but the same is not true for gallente, and that will not be changing any time soon. If you honestly believe that pulses are inferior to ACs, you either need to get your head examined, or you need to actually go out and try flying some of these OP minmatar ships.

    Ruah Piskonit wrote:

    4) Tacheons are actually a tier above other large guns - the Mega Beam is the equiv. But then again, look at the fitting and cap use.
    That is not now, nor has it ever been, a valid argument for the balancing issues involving tachyons. It's an option (and a very viable one at that) that the other races do not have. When we see 500mm rails and 1800mm arties, THEN you can argue that you can't compare the different tiers. Until then, when discussing balance, we look at the best tier available to each race, and how it gets used in different situations. In terms of sniping at long ranges, tachyons are amarr's best tool, 425s are gallente's. If the best tool for sniping used by amarr is better than the best tool for sniping used by gallente (who are supposed to have the best range with their long range weapons) then we have a problem.

    Ruah Piskonit wrote:

    Overall the changes are huge. Blasters will do a LOT more damage now, Blasters were and should always remain super close range. I would say that these changes are really good and should do a lot to make blasters really great.

    Rails will always do the least DPS at the most range. Artillery will always do the most alpha at the worst ranges, and beams will remain the best middle ground but with major fitting and cap issues.

    I would be happy.
    1)Blasters aren't doing more damage. At least not with BSs, where they need the most help. I could be wrong, but I saw no DPS increase for large neutrons in those leaked notes.

    2)Blasters SHOULD remain close range, provided that they melt face when they get close. A blaster boat fielding 17% more DPS (even more insulting is the geddon's ROF bonus which brings this down to 8%) than a pulse ship isn't really that impressive.

    3)Rails really don't do the worst dps at the best range, a tachyon apoc can hit the hardlock just fine and there is literally no use in shooting farther since it's not possible to lock that far. What's worse is that due to current probing and warping mechanics shooting past 150 tends to be somewhat useless since it'll be a matter of seconds before the other fleet gets a warpin on you that's closer.

    4)I'm sure you would be happy, amarr still have the best guns out there.
    kxdan
    Absolute Order XVI
    Absolute Honor
    #38 - 2011-11-01 15:37:28 UTC
    Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
    What ccp seems to be missing is that blasters and even rail guns are one trZick ponies. While it may seem to make sense to balance the game based on theoretical eft numbers the truth is far from this failed concept. Blasters sacrifice everything imaginable compared to other weapons systems for a tiny dps advantage at a range that is almost never even achievable, WTF??

    What blasters need is flexibility, not some failed pigeon holed role that has not worked since 2006... If you're going to make these ships one trick ponies that fight at a range where escape is almost impossible then they are going to need some rather strong advantages, especially when these ships are toted as "solo/small gang ships".... At the moment the true solo ships of the game are the same ships you see blowing up the kill boards... You guessed it, matari/angel ships... I'm not even going to get into the reasons why as i'd just be insulting you all at this point. We all know there is a fundamental flaw in how Blaster ships work and a simple change to fitting requirements, speed, and tracking will not change anything outside of making them a tiny bit better at a role that is already doomed to fail from concept.

    Radical slot layout changes, and a total paradigm shift of Gallente combat philosophy is require to get this race working again... Time for you to stop being stubborn here CCP... You're original idea has failed years ago and it's time to act like a professional game development company and get your game competently balanced.


    Amen
    The rail buff i don't think will cut it , they still require large amounts of cap and dont do nearly as much dps as artillery does , Autocannons can be applied to almost everything , with the high tracking and kiting abilities they are far to overpowered . With blasters the ships need more of a buff then this speed advantage . As soon as a blaster boat commits itself it is almost a one way ticket it will get primaried and burn up way before it hits its target , or arrive at its target at half armor and just get kited
    Sebastian N Cain
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #39 - 2011-11-01 21:08:51 UTC
    Grimpak wrote:
    1600 RT wrote:
    Grimpak wrote:
    proposed changes are just halfway there. they still only have marginally better dps for much less range atm.

    yeah me too want moar pls ccp go overboard with hybrid boost and maybe why not nerf amarr and minmatar while you are at it?


    Roll



    of course they should cut range of blasters even further.

    they should do face-melting dps inside a 10-15km bracket, but beyond that, they should have a hard time scratching paint out of an old barn.

    damage projection of blasters should be done by the ships themselves and not the guns. that's the counter-balance point of having a gun that can wtfpwn anything inside its optimal.


    Well, the minmatar got the face-melting with that hail-buff.
    So at least someone will be able to use that tactic.

    Is someone actually surprised that this someone will be the minmatar and not the gallente?Pirate

    I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

    Gypsio III
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #40 - 2011-11-01 21:59:20 UTC
    Sebastian N Cain wrote:


    Well, the minmatar got the face-melting with that hail-buff.
    So at least someone will be able to use that tactic.

    Is someone actually surprised that this someone will be the minmatar and not the gallente?Pirate


    CCP logic, Volume 94.

    Problem - AC boats are better than blasterboats at being blasterboats, thanks to being faster and more agile and doing similar applied DPS.
    Solution - buff Hail.
    Result - fewer pliots fly Gallente, hence fewer complaints. See T1 cruisers, tier 1 BCs, Eagle, Deimos and shield capitals for previous successes of this strategy. Straight
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