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Distinguishing PvP <----> MPvP?!?
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Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-09-28 03:03:23 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Chin MonWang wrote:
Often I see gang-players (pirates) referring to some fights as their PvP-fights whereas the killboard clearly show it was only a fight of group vs. 1 player. Would it not be more accurate to actually refer to such fights as MPvP (multi-player against 1 player)? There is a significant distinction here since in real PvP both players involved are willingly taking far more risks of loosing in duellings whereas MPvP for the MP-part almost zero-risk-taking is involved. For me it does not matter at all or so, since I like all kinds of fights, it just made me wonder when I noticed that far too often gang-players (low-sec or 0-sec) incorrectly flatter themselves stating they are experienced PvP-ers whereas they most of the time refer to their MPvP-fights. Correct would be to refer to them as experienced MpvP fighters, instead?! When one watches the killboards you see the MPvP fighters loosing far less ships than the real PvP-fighters which I for example sometimes watch fighting at Jita (and those guys, often veteran players are real good at PvP(!), show real good fights and they willingly are taking far more risks in intelligent 1vs1 PvP-fights). So, just wondering distinguishing PvP from MPvP would that not be far more accurate, considering that compared to real PvP-fighting a participation in MPvP represent 'some walk in the park' so to speak, yes? Your opinions now.

(note: above is not ironically meant; just represents a sincere thought)


nice one, rough calculations even show people solo shooting cynos have a bigger challange compared to those 30 vs. 1 fleets out there... I call the PvP out there PvZ, player vs. zero because only one in that 30 vs. 1 has a fight, the solo pilot, the others just fight against Zero

I had a lot of PvP out there however my opponents only had PvZ

I also got the feeling that PvZ is the main reason for severe braindamage in big alliances, however further investigations need to be done on that matter...



Grr Goons! I'm right, you're wrong!

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#22 - 2013-09-28 03:04:44 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Chin MonWang wrote:
Often I see gang-players (pirates) referring to some fights as their PvP-fights whereas the killboard clearly show it was only a fight of group vs. 1 player. Would it not be more accurate to actually refer to such fights as MPvP (multi-player against 1 player)? There is a significant distinction here since in real PvP both players involved are willingly taking far more risks of loosing in duellings whereas MPvP for the MP-part almost zero-risk-taking is involved. For me it does not matter at all or so, since I like all kinds of fights, it just made me wonder when I noticed that far too often gang-players (low-sec or 0-sec) incorrectly flatter themselves stating they are experienced PvP-ers whereas they most of the time refer to their MPvP-fights. Correct would be to refer to them as experienced MpvP fighters, instead?! When one watches the killboards you see the MPvP fighters loosing far less ships than the real PvP-fighters which I for example sometimes watch fighting at Jita (and those guys, often veteran players are real good at PvP(!), show real good fights and they willingly are taking far more risks in intelligent 1vs1 PvP-fights). So, just wondering distinguishing PvP from MPvP would that not be far more accurate, considering that compared to real PvP-fighting a participation in MPvP represent 'some walk in the park' so to speak, yes? Your opinions now.

(note: above is not ironically meant; just represents a sincere thought)


nice one, rough calculations even show people solo shooting cynos have a bigger challange compared to those 30 vs. 1 fleets out there... I call the PvP out there PvZ, player vs. zero because only one in that 30 vs. 1 has a fight, the solo pilot, the others just fight against Zero

I had a lot of PvP out there however my opponents only had PvZ

I also got the feeling that PvZ is the main reason for severe braindamage in big alliances, however further investigations need to be done on that matter...



Grr Goons! I'm right, you're wrong!

I was assigning drones, so yeah I guess I wasn't really fighting.

Do you think I can join Ishtar Secunda now

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#23 - 2013-09-28 03:06:16 UTC
ncdot also uses the assign drones doctrines, maybe i can join them

can i :getin: before progodlegend destroys us

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-09-28 03:59:40 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
[quote=ShahFluffers]Here's a thought to chew on OP...

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...



That's real funny, imagine all those people right away going searching the missing 'that skill book!'!! haha
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-09-28 05:05:51 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...


I was more impressed about the Machariel that I saw on a kill that had attacked with a Loki as its weapon.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-09-28 05:10:05 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...


Pod with a 1400mm gun. Fires other pods.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2013-09-28 05:31:53 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...

I was more impressed about the Machariel that I saw on a kill that had attacked with a Loki as its weapon.

How does that happen ?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-09-28 05:46:49 UTC
You're mistaking the gank with the fight.

The gank: Many forms including but not limited to blobs v 1, small gangs v 1. Hell, even a blob can gank another blob assuming one group knows what they're doing and are flying the right ships. Me and some friends ganked a fleet twice our size. I say it's a gank because I sure in the hell wouldn't call it a fight. We wiped the floor with them.

The fight: The life and death struggle between two people or two groups. It's a time when comms erupts frantic calls for primaries and secondaries between two evenly match foes when you're wondering to yourself WTF is FC switching primary when current primary is 3/4's armor...huh!?!?

As for 1v1.....you bring the 1v1, I'm bringing the gang. Fair play is a concept we should beat out of our children like the devil!

Don't ban me, bro!
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2013-09-28 06:34:35 UTC
P vs N is only a gank when you lose.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-09-28 07:15:13 UTC
came in expecting something about LoTRO (MPvP = Monster Player vs Player there)... Odd...

No. PvP is equally Players vs Players - as in 1+ vs 1+. If you bring 1 and they bring more -- that's still PvP. The same often occurs in "arena" based team games. A group clocks 1 member of your opposition at a time. It doesn't negate the validity simply because others weren't close enough (or willing) to help out that 1 member.
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-09-28 15:05:08 UTC
yes of course the fightings is much more than just duellings alone, fully agree of course; at the same time I must admit that duelling from time to time is a real nice addition, sometimes brings also some humor to game for instance last time: I was lookin for taking on some (battle) cruiser at Jita, after some 30 minutes waiting/scouting, and 2x inviting same player, that player as lightening as fast changed his vessel to a Machariel (not even to fight me or so, but just to make his point that way, though that experienced veteran player did not speak a word, I understood that his message must have been somewhat as: "not now, back off you little one, go make some rice & chicken, I am being busy conducting real fights here" Brought a good smile to my face, I liked his good sense of relativity & humor.

Besides that, just wondering about the time-consuming task many fleet commanders facing today all those questions asked to them by minor fleet participants: "am I doing PvP? Or is it MPvP? What is general regarded as representing higher classed achievements? Or is is PvZ what I am doing, as it was in almost technical way defined/described by experienced players on the forums?

...well, i guess that will keep those low-sec fleet commanders busy for a while..gives me better chance to sneak in unseen low-sec and try to burn some 3 of my battlecruisers this evening in what I hope entertaining fights (actually I hope to vaporize at least 1 guy, taking him out by surprize, feeling safeguarded all the time by his big brothers, would make my day....(I guess when I would be working at some circus I would be the one putting his head in a lions mouth just for fun and adrenaline, and of course to please the public!hahaha...cheers
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-09-28 16:00:05 UTC
Winning at PvP is not just about showing up as the victor on a killboard. You can win at PvP without firing a shot. If you fly through someone's gatecamp like it wasn't there, you just won at PvP. I hardly ever fight in this game, and when I do I'm terrible, but I win at PvP all the time and I love it. People who are obsessed with 1v1 and killboard stats are only focused on one part of the game. That's not a bad thing; it's what they like and that's cool, but there's a lot more to this game than 1v1 e-honoure crap and kill/death ratios.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-09-28 20:31:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...

I was more impressed about the Machariel that I saw on a kill that had attacked with a Loki as its weapon.

How does that happen ?


That I have no idea about, it listed the Machariel as 1 of the aggressor ships a Loki was showed in the weapon/damage spot below it.
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-09-28 21:14:46 UTC
PvP was never meant as "one player versus one player". It's just there to distinguish PvP and PvE from each other.

It doesn't matter whether it's 1v1 or 1v1000, it's still PvP.
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-09-29 13:29:49 UTC
Asuka Smith wrote:
While at first glance your argument is appealing, but look a little deeper and it gets more complicated. Typically the smaller the fight the more the fight is won or lost on raw ship type match up and total sp, and it's actually a lot less skillful in my eyes than anything but the most gruesome gank. You see, on the killmail 10 guys killing one is not so good looking, but you don't see the effort that went in before the fight. It probably took good probing, scanning, and/or baiting. It also took stealth and situational awareness not to get counter ganked. While its true that sometimes a noob jumps a gate blind and just dies automatically, but most people who are being hunted become aware of that fact quickly, takes more skill to catch a ratter wo isn't Afk than to fight a duel.

Furthermore, you are implying that unfair pvp is less legitimate than a 1v1. I think it takes quite a bit of skill to set up a one sided fight. Wining a 5v5 is about shiptypes and sp. getting a 5v1 takes more skill IMO.

Ofc the most skilled pvp is large fleets where tactics, sp, scouting, etc all add together to win or lose.


Very good posting there,and yes, all true you said, is realy complex, equals in fact some chess: strategy + tactics all in 1: how to place ones pieces, what plans to follow etc. etc.

(but look at my #20: trust me, if someone goin to say in comments 'twice'(!) as i did..."this posting is not ironically meant"...well bet it is the opposite Blink
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-09-29 13:30:46 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Winning at PvP is not just about showing up as the victor on a killboard. You can win at PvP without firing a shot. If you fly through someone's gatecamp like it wasn't there, you just won at PvP. I hardly ever fight in this game, and when I do I'm terrible, but I win at PvP all the time and I love it. People who are obsessed with 1v1 and killboard stats are only focused on one part of the game. That's not a bad thing; it's what they like and that's cool, but there's a lot more to this game than 1v1 e-honoure crap and kill/death ratios.


Good comment, shows in a clear way that every individual player searches for the kind of action he or she the most likes, prefers. I myself pursue the more combat focussed approach, entertaining combat/pvp, I do not even bother how many ships I would loose in the process, as long as fights are entertaining (going up in flames after some real entertaining fight I much more prefer than playing it safe and flying around one and the same ship for many months to come, and the risk taking in fact provides the real fun for me). So, just now I looked into RvB, seems ok to me, so I will try it out, looks real fine, finished some reading about it: corp has no strict agenda's to follow, no long-term obligations nor any obligation to participate in scheduled activities, thus all on freely basis, I like that. Corp seems about just having some fun with your ships in combat, suits me. Only thing I have to find out: since I read Jita should be avoided in general when joined up, but where to purchase things then, since Jita is favourite shopping mall for most of us. Guess they found a way around that, will ask them.
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-09-29 15:01:43 UTC
This is how real pirates treat proskill PvP'ers.
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-09-29 19:30:37 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
This is how real pirates treat proskill PvP'ers.



yes, ok, funny, but guess, these highly skilled ladies would certainly disagree with you: yr Harrison Ford would lose his hat (...with his head still in it) in a clash with either one of those.... Cool

'Schoolgirl bodyguard (Gogo Yubari) fights Black Mamba'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9iIKn1Bl6c
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