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[Proposal] AFK game play - the cloaked vessel

First post First post
Author
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#141 - 2014-02-03 13:23:28 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
If you're cloaked you should vanish from local. There, now you don't have to worry about the single neut in local.


I support this idea. So much :D.

Null dangerousity would still feel different from W-space but at the same time the local would slightly loose its importance.
Also, thats a buff to BOMBER HOTDROOOOOOPPPPSSSS Big smile

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#142 - 2014-02-03 17:02:13 UTC
Right but the bear tears are coming in from "AFK cloaking." If it's all hot drops it's content and pvp, no afking. I prefer that myself.
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
#143 - 2014-02-04 02:37:35 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
[Proposal] AFK game play

Nofearion wrote:

Scope of this thread
(1) - I do not want to change or (nerf) cloaky - I like them and use them.
(2) - If someone is actively cloaky camping non issue - I just want the ability to hunt them.
(3) - If someone is afk cloaking
(a) - Gives the impression of active cloaky camper
(b) - is very hard to discern from an active cloaky camper
(c) - should have a mechanic that I can use the hunt them
(d) - should have a mechanic that decloaks after a long period of inactivity

Why everyone allways jump from AFK gameplay to cloaked ships?

If you want to make it fare - use the same judgment to all docked and hiding in POS forcefield ships P

Anyway, I dont see the issue if someone need to leave his PC suddenly and have no idea if he would be able to return in time.
Although I understand the desire to kill those helpless unprotected ships while someone is away Twisted

Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8

Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#144 - 2014-02-04 14:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Nofearion wrote:
4. Anyone in space whose ship does not perform some active function for more than one hour logs off.
This can give several warnings such as we get for the approach of down time. It will affect everyone and not just cloaked pilots.
Actions can be as simple as moving stuff from cans to cargo bay or as in Rorqual or supers moving from one bay to another.
In cloaked ships it could be as simple as changing speed or turning. Every other MMO I have or currently do play has a limit to inactive time spent in game. I like this one as it forces pilots to be active in the game and not afk. Please keep in mind the for a ship to change direction it requires a click and as such a mouse wiggler will not work.
Edit to #4 - The new crest api tools will eliminate the need to have a pilot logged in to get market data, also I did not include docked pilots, only pilots in space. and for clarification only the pilot that has been inactive for an hour.


Auto-Logoff? Stay away with that please. I am so frelling glad, that Eve doesn't do this s***t.
Imagine you are sitting in your POS, floating somewhere in hisec space or cloaked in some safespot. You go chat on Jabber with your coalition, or are heavily discussing something on Mumble, or EFTing, or checking some forums, ... Then you tab back and you notice you have to restart the client and login. You will have no idea if and what was written in all the open chat channels (unless you start scrambling through the logs). You will also have to wait for eWarp to finish doing its thing.
"Just dock up when you go afk / tab out" is not an alternative, sorry.
And not everyone sitting still and watching/waiting is an afk cloaker in nullsec. Please don't force me to do silly moves all time in order to stay logged.

They introduced Auto-Logoff in a game I used to play since 2003, it's there for some years now and it still drives me mad even tho, or maybe especially because I don't actively play it much but just log in to hang around a bit.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#145 - 2014-02-04 19:52:03 UTC
The people most inclined to whine and cry about cloaky ships are the people who want a theme park version of Eve online. If ever the community has given you the impression that those sort of people are wanted/needed in Eve, you have been very mistaken.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#146 - 2014-02-08 15:52:36 UTC
all good points, well mostly

(1) against passive game play.
So using the same arguments against passive game play, they why are we nerfing drone assist?
let me digress, I am for the changes that are coming I think it will make combat more interesting. Reading the thread on it however.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=319278
"We feel that drone assist, at a large scale, leads to passive gameplay that most players do not enjoy. Assist places too much control in the hands of a single person and leaves the majority of the fleet with little to do."

(2) whining about cloaky campers go someplace eles ect.
I want to interact with the long term cloaky camper, I would rather he be active so I can give chase, that is fun. sitting in station or moving operations more often then not leads to logging off. This is not in my case but with many who I talk with.

(3) killing defenseless ships or looking for easy kills.
The other point made several times in this thread, the discussion is not the occasional cloaky camper looking for easy kills, or is doing disruptive camping, this is about the cloaky camper who logs in right after downtime and says claoked in the system does not do anything but be present except stay cloaked until the next down time. then does this for weeks on end.

Not whining about my system being camped.
I do want to interact with a mechanic that currently does not allow it but does allow a perceived threat.
personally if Eve became a theme park version I would not play it.
Seraph to be honest I expected better arguments from you.
I have always respected your point of view, even when I did not agree with it.
The auto log off idea was not mine however I did see a little merit in it. with further discussion I do see a bigger downfall to it.
I am still looking for good discussion on this, like it how it is, please leave a response with the merits explained, and show why this is such a valuable mechanic and should not be messed with.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#147 - 2014-02-08 17:48:55 UTC
First off, AFK cloaking isn't a mechanic.

Secondly, what is wrong with killing defenseless ships? I don't see the merits of your argument anymore than someone saying "nerf ship X because it's causing trouble for me." If you don't want a "non active afk cloaker" in your system you should advocate that cloaked ships are not in local. That way only "active" ships are present. Problem solved.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#148 - 2014-02-08 21:14:33 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
First off, AFK cloaking isn't a mechanic.

Secondly, what is wrong with killing defenseless ships? I don't see the merits of your argument anymore than someone saying "nerf ship X because it's causing trouble for me." If you don't want a "non active afk cloaker" in your system you should advocate that cloaked ships are not in local. That way only "active" ships are present. Problem solved.


I have supported this numerous times in this thread.
I have also supported the need for other means of intel should local be reduced to showing only those who "speak" in it.
I also do not mind killing defenceless ships but I prefer they shoot back, I like a challenge
and it is not a problem solved.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#149 - 2014-02-09 03:38:25 UTC
If you ever happen to find yourself actually flying a bomber in a pvp situation, you'll find that it's hard enough already. The moment you enter local, everyone docks up or gets to a pos. AFK cloaking is the only method to force the "defenseless ships" to actually come out to get shot at. Eve is a game of patience. It can take hours, days, weeks, even months to finally hit your mark.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#150 - 2014-02-15 17:45:47 UTC
AFK gameplay... so that would means that "anchoring" mechanic is bad and need change to.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#151 - 2014-02-15 18:24:02 UTC
AFK cloaking threads are always entertaining!

But seriously now, a question for the 'hunters'.

Say there was a game mechanic to force cloakies out of hiding. Just as an example, yet another deployable Shocked that causes all cloaks in system to slowly degrade over time. Say after an hour or two, the cloak stops working. Only way to avoid it is jump out of system. If you do, then jump back in, the 'degradation timer' resets completely. Logging off doesnt stop the 'timer' (when you log back in the timer continues 'ticking' from whatever time was left when you logged out).

So yeah, you can camp systems cloaked all you want, you just have to switch systems, or jump in an out, every hour or two.

The question is: honestly guys, how would this be an uninteresting new mechanic?

Wouldn't it make things more lively?

You could still camp a system for weeks, still play the 'psychological warfare game' (which I think is cool, btw), you just couldn't do it while you're off to work or pub crawling in RL.

And the 'defenders' would get a small chance to catch you, once every hour or so, if they prepare and pay attention.

Wouldn't this - or a similar mechanic - be more fun, more interaction, more gameplay both for the 'hunters' and the 'prey'?

BTW, I'm no 'nullbear', I'm in lowsec FW/piracy, there's no such thing as a 'safe system' to me, reds & neutrals are everywhere, and I never engage in mining or PVE.

But from my outside perspective, it just seems to me that the 'hunters' resistance to any change on this matter is equal or stronger than the (I admit, often hilarious) nullbear tears.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#152 - 2014-02-15 18:46:15 UTC
Jasmine Panzer wrote:
AFK cloaking threads are always entertaining!

But seriously now, a question for the 'hunters'.

Say there was a game mechanic to force cloakies out of hiding. Just as an example, yet another deployable Shocked that causes all cloaks in system to slowly degrade over time. Say after an hour or two, the cloak stops working. Only way to avoid it is jump out of system. If you do, then jump back in, the 'degradation timer' resets completely. Logging off doesnt stop the 'timer' (when you log back in the timer continues 'ticking' from whatever time was left when you logged out).

So yeah, you can camp systems cloaked all you want, you just have to switch systems, or jump in an out, every hour or two.

The question is: honestly guys, how would this be an uninteresting new mechanic?

Wouldn't it make things more lively?

You could still camp a system for weeks, still play the 'psychological warfare game' (which I think is cool, btw), you just couldn't do it while you're off to work or pub crawling in RL.

And the 'defenders' would get a small chance to catch you, once every hour or so, if they prepare and pay attention.

Wouldn't this - or a similar mechanic - be more fun, more interaction, more gameplay both for the 'hunters' and the 'prey'?

BTW, I'm no 'nullbear', I'm in lowsec FW/piracy, there's no such thing as a 'safe system' to me, reds & neutrals are everywhere, and I never engage in mining or PVE.

But from my outside perspective, it just seems to me that the 'hunters' resistance to any change on this matter is equal or stronger than the (I admit, often hilarious) nullbear tears.


I am going to have to answer no, for myself.
This is focusing on a symptom, not the primary issue.

Please consider the following:

Cloaked campers are an issue, because the 'defenders' wish to maintain a persistent presence of ships which are at best poor at PvP. The primary tactic these ships use is evasion, for this reason.
The campers are cloaked, because ships of superior fighting ability to them can be brought in, just not until they are aware of a need. This problem exists partly because these ships are not a normal presence.

The real issue, is we are playing not simply a PvP game, but one featuring space combat.
The ships exist in three tiers, in this regard to ability in space combat.

On top, are dedicated PvP ships. They are not good at much more than PvP, so when other needs exist they have difficulty meeting them. Obviously, they have superiority in space combat.

In the middle, we have stealthy ships. They are mediocre at PvP, having compromised potential for the purpose of balancing their 'stealth' capacity. They are mediocre at space combat, being less effective than the pure dedicated ships.

On the bottom, are the dedicated ISK generation vessels, mining ships being an often cited example.
These are the least effective at space combat, relying on avoiding conflict whenever possible.

Each level is capable of preying on those below it, and fighting against those on their own level.

Your suggestion ignores the disparity in fighting ability, and treats the symptom by simply limiting access to the middle group.

If we want to see more fights, (AKA interaction in the minds of many players), we need to dispel the perception of disparity between the levels that players can make plans around.
Give the lowest level the fighting ability to confront the mid level, and this resolves itself.

Noone expects the dedicated PvP ships to stand a post, and it would be absurd to coerce them for such.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#153 - 2014-02-16 17:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nofearion
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Jasmine Panzer wrote:
AFK cloaking threads are always entertaining!

But seriously now, a question for the 'hunters'.

Say there was a game mechanic to force cloakies out of hiding. Just as an example, yet another deployable Shocked that causes all cloaks in system to slowly degrade over time. Say after an hour or two, the cloak stops working. Only way to avoid it is jump out of system. If you do, then jump back in, the 'degradation timer' resets completely. Logging off doesnt stop the 'timer' (when you log back in the timer continues 'ticking' from whatever time was left when you logged out).

So yeah, you can camp systems cloaked all you want, you just have to switch systems, or jump in an out, every hour or two.

The question is: honestly guys, how would this be an uninteresting new mechanic?

Wouldn't it make things more lively?

You could still camp a system for weeks, still play the 'psychological warfare game' (which I think is cool, btw), you just couldn't do it while you're off to work or pub crawling in RL.

And the 'defenders' would get a small chance to catch you, once every hour or so, if they prepare and pay attention.

Wouldn't this - or a similar mechanic - be more fun, more interaction, more gameplay both for the 'hunters' and the 'prey'?

BTW, I'm no 'nullbear', I'm in lowsec FW/piracy, there's no such thing as a 'safe system' to me, reds & neutrals are everywhere, and I never engage in mining or PVE.

But from my outside perspective, it just seems to me that the 'hunters' resistance to any change on this matter is equal or stronger than the (I admit, often hilarious) nullbear tears.


I am going to have to answer no, for myself.
This is focusing on a symptom, not the primary issue.

Please consider the following:

Cloaked campers are an issue, because the 'defenders' wish to maintain a persistent presence of ships which are at best poor at PvP. The primary tactic these ships use is evasion, for this reason.
The campers are cloaked, because ships of superior fighting ability to them can be brought in, just not until they are aware of a need. This problem exists partly because these ships are not a normal presence.

The real issue, is we are playing not simply a PvP game, but one featuring space combat.
The ships exist in three tiers, in this regard to ability in space combat.

On top, are dedicated PvP ships. They are not good at much more than PvP, so when other needs exist they have difficulty meeting them. Obviously, they have superiority in space combat.

In the middle, we have stealthy ships. They are mediocre at PvP, having compromised potential for the purpose of balancing their 'stealth' capacity. They are mediocre at space combat, being less effective than the pure dedicated ships.

On the bottom, are the dedicated ISK generation vessels, mining ships being an often cited example.
These are the least effective at space combat, relying on avoiding conflict whenever possible.

Each level is capable of preying on those below it, and fighting against those on their own level.

Your suggestion ignores the disparity in fighting ability, and treats the symptom by simply limiting access to the middle group.

If we want to see more fights, (AKA interaction in the minds of many players), we need to dispel the perception of disparity between the levels that players can make plans around.
Give the lowest level the fighting ability to confront the mid level, and this resolves itself.

Noone expects the dedicated PvP ships to stand a post, and it would be absurd to coerce them for such.


Nick, you fully understand What I am getting at. I wish I could have explained it as good as you did here.
Barring a fundamental change in ships and eve itself, solutions are far and few inbetween. you cannot please everybody.
If a deployable is used I do like the idea of a slow decay or somthing along those lines. However still be best Ideas I have heard involve removing local chat as an intel tool and putting something in its place.
Please keep the good Ideas coming.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#154 - 2014-02-16 18:26:19 UTC
Why does anything need to be put in its place?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#155 - 2014-02-16 23:01:21 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Why does anything need to be put in its place?

In order to know peace and contentment, a person must seek the path of least conflict with their environment.

In objects, don't put the square peg in the round hole.

In EVE, don't expect PvP ships to stand guard when they could have more fun elsewhere.

Smile
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#156 - 2014-02-16 23:07:40 UTC
So you want pvp to happen in the pvp arena while you can theme park in your corner of the universe.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#157 - 2014-02-16 23:20:05 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
So you want pvp to happen in the pvp arena while you can theme park in your corner of the universe.

For myself, not necessarily that at all.

I want the PvE ships capable of fighting back directly, rather than subscribe to the myth of being defended by selfless players who pay to stand guard over them.

I want to bet my ability to defend my mining operation, rather than run and hide.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#158 - 2014-02-16 23:29:00 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
So you want pvp to happen in the pvp arena while you can theme park in your corner of the universe.

For myself, not necessarily that at all.

I want the PvE ships capable of fighting back directly, rather than subscribe to the myth of being defended by selfless players who pay to stand guard over them.

I want to bet my ability to defend my mining operation, rather than run and hide.



You want to plow the fields in full plate armor? Doesn't work that way chief.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-02-17 00:56:39 UTC
I agree.

as does Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

you can not do it all at the same time but you can have friends who will help you

(when I was younger I was a church elder)

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#160 - 2014-02-17 15:56:36 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I agree.

as does Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

you can not do it all at the same time but you can have friends who will help you

(when I was younger I was a church elder)

m

Please demonstrate the incentive that PvP players have, to pay for an EVE account so that they may stare at miners persistently cycle mining lasers.
Note: The option to go on roams and seek PvP may be perfectly understood, yet still be rejected so this dynamic can be preserved.

Also, please note the ships most often cited as being capable of actually threatening PvE assets in null, are also demonstrated to be unwilling to engage in an obvious losing engagement.
The PvP ships, by virtue of their known presence, would act as a deterrent. Sadly, this would result in virtually ensuring that they see no PvP while filling this necessary function of guardianship.

A cat sits until it is done sitting, and then gets up, stretches, and walks away.
A PvP player stays until they lose interest, then looks up other opportunities to find play and warps away.

It is simply in their nature, and to deny this is folly.