Assembly Hall

Oh, now we are talking about game design! Bout ******* time! First,



Lets talk about this, lets assume you know something about game design, first you will know that in many cases it takes more the one game mechanic to make something possible, but at the same time it could only take one of these mechanics to make something unfun. Now if we are talking about afk cloakers. Have you ever thought that it might be like this, not because of the mechanic of cloak, but due to the omnipotent Intel? Thus emergent game play has evolved to make that omnipotent intel.... Lie? Hmmm....



That the thing about a sandbox game, you have to look out for EVERY POSSIBILITY. Something you learn about that in game designing, just saying. While yes, developers don't build mechanics around multiboxing, they have to look in the perspective of. How will someone abuse this mechanic? Can it be broken by say... Someone that is multiboxing?



First I would like to ask. How do you know that will ruin nullsec in the blink of an eye? If wormhole was all that bad, I doubt we would of ever have seen this expansion pack that is purely design just for wormhole sec. As for ideas in general. The mechanic that is null sec needs a complete rewrite. To remove local we need new and better intel tools that while requiring WORK doesn't have such a steep learning curve that no one but a few can use them. Intels tools should be like probes. Almost anyways can do probes, but only the good few can narrow down that target in 10 something seconds! (exaggerated analogy, but it there to get my point across.) Next, once real intel tools are put into place, and local remove then you will most likely see tools design to hunt down cloakers.

Next, we need a few other changes as well before such change can take place as well! Power projection should be looked into, I don't feel that moving 10 titans, backed up by hundreds or even maybe thousands of ships should beable to be done at a drop of the hat. However that is just my opinion.

Until such changes are made. These three facts will REMAIN FACTS

Cloak is broken, Local is broken. By both being broken in direct inverse to each other, they remain in PERFECT balance.

on this I am very surprised my friend Seraph has not commented. So I will
DUDE if you want a theme park version of EVE go back to WOW

Where did I say that? I just would rather live in null. If I wanted to live in a wormhole, I would.

It can't really be both.

The thin is, it's still your opinion they are broken. Basically they don't wok in the way you think they should, that isn;t the same as being "broken". It's just a mechanic you don't like. The way it is, cloaks are useful for disguising the type of ship from d-scan, preventing people tracking your movements within a system and for providing on grid intel and surprise attacks. That's what they are designed for, and they fulfil their purpose very well, so well in fact that there's no null group that doesn't use covops cloakers.

I don't suggest tools for either. I think cloaked ships are huntable enough. Sure, AFK cloaking provides a little too much benefit to the effort it takes, which is why I'd take a look at the being AFK element (not just for cloakers), but cloaking in general is a good mechanic, as is local intel in it's current state.

lol. Moving on because you want to deem working gameplay as "broken" because you don't like the way it works.

I disagree. I don't think it create perfect balance at all, and where you say it results in unsatisfying gameplay is because you are trying to use cloaking for something it's not designed for. You want to make cloaking even more powerful by further removing cloakers from intel, requiring even more work on the part of their victims to evade them in addition to their already powerful benefits. That's not producing asymmetrical balance, that's taking a game mechanic and buffing it well beyond that of any other mechanic creating a massive imbalance. Cloakers without local would replace anything else. There would be no reason to ever use a non-covops ships for hunting people down solo, just like in wormhole space right now, where cloaky T3s are the standard choice for anyone nipping into wormholes to score some ganks.

So in essence, your issue is you don't think people work hard enough for what they currently get, and yet the parts you would like to change would only negatively affect people wanting to PVE in null. Honestly, what gameplay benefits do you think it would have to anyone beside a ganker? You want to jam in some sort of chore, or a tedious configuration game just for people to be able to get enough information to even begin playing the part of the game they actually enjoy.

I very much doubt it. They've worked as they have for years, several other mechanics are built around them, and any significant change to them would likely result in a mass exodus of nullsec. And all for what? So a handful of gankers that want to tackle with cloaking ships can get their wish granted?

Out of curiosity, who are you? Since you've chosen to post with an alt, it's not even clear where you even stand in this entire discussion. It certainly comes across like you are someone that has little idea about how people that actually live in null interact, which is why you are happy to toss around ideas which would literally destroy and entire class of gameplay, to replace it with what effectively already exists in wormhole space.

lucas, I have keep up with this thread I started and I have read each and every post.
I suggest you do the same. you are still missing the point, I think you may be arguing for arguments sake.
The issue raised is that (not broken, not not working as intended) is that current mechanics revolving cloaks and afk gameplay are not fun.
please do not put more into it than that, if you want to argue more, please feel free to start your own thread.
That being said, you do make a lot point that echo others, That does not make it a fact, it makes it a popular opinion.
Facts are not always popular, and sometimes a popular opinion is a good idea, most times it is not as it has not looked at the crux of the issue only the symptoms.
If you go back and read some of your arguments and opinions, you will see that you desire a change or lack of change that would make living in Null sec easier.
No one here is suggesting making things like WH space.
we have discussed modifying current intel gathering into something more involved that takes activity to use.
Currently local is local, it is used for many things including spam to seeing who is in system.
to be honest having lived in null for quite sometime I do not see how it is tied to force projection as Cyno's show on your overview not local
in practice, even in null when you see new face in local you hit dscan to see what they are in. Dscan is not ties to local.
I digress, this thread is not about abolishing local, nor about new intel mechanics with exception of finding cloaked vessels.
This thread is about how to change existing mechanics to make it possible to hunt cloaked ships in a manner that would dissuade AFK play.
Please stop derailing this thread, start your own.
or stay on topic
thank you.

This impiles using alts for survival, not only scanning/scoutin alts, you have to control 2 windows in real time, one you are ratting with, another on some gate. If atm you can afford some delay after hearing gate flash from scout window - as whoever initiated it will still be shown in local - now you absolutely have to alt+tab to this window asap - even if you under the heaviest fire from rats, applying tremendous efforts just to survive - or you will lose the intel piece.

Need to multibox just to sustain reasonable amount of income in nulls/wh is what signifies rather twisted game mechanic, imo. I won't say for wh space, but in nulls cooperation with other players which includes delegating scouting and intel gathering to separate party (which implies sharing your income with them), won't be profitable for you enough to justify ratting here, all risks acounted for, as you still have HS as a solid and almost risk-free ratting option. And Lucas Kell already mentioned moral ambiguity of game designer's decisions forcing people to stare at gates all day long just to allow somebody play his game.

If it will be automated function, like you just set some option and become visible to all your blues in local - then I agree with this point. If you will need to do it manually in every and each system you traverse - this is another bad design decision which contributes to quantity of mindnumbing clickfest activities, and we have plenty of those in Eve already, please, don't.

Point one: if effort is too much, you will have mostly empty nulls as of today and anyone still operating here do it mostly only because he at least has a local chat which will allow him to get to safety long before threat will knock to his door (which is usually means you are deadman). So less targets, less content.
Point two: by restricting nulls only to team activities you are doom it to stay sparse-populated again. It's obvious that many people prefer to play solo, or stay out of big entities. And they will keep their tastes whatsoever. Banning them from here you are again devoiding yourself and other null dwellers of content. I don't agrue that collective gameplay should be rewarded heavily - I argue your vision of "you are either play collectively and in big entity, or you will have no chance to survive". This is horribly wrong game design, imo. It should be "being a member of small entity will allow you to survive for shure and have a decent income, not less than you would have got from incursions in hs, but you could got much, much more if you have joined something bigger" - this is the aproach that will drive more people to nulls, making everybody's life more intresting.

Thats what my proposal of splitting cloak into two modes stems from. Having it this way you don't need to have 5 alts on all wh exits in the systems to survive anymore, you only need one character and you need to stay vigilant (which is serious challenge in Eve's reality taking into account hours and hours of repetitive actions during everyday PvE activities). Now you don't need those infeasible aproaches with delegated human guardians at gates, neither you absolutely need to have a big entity backing you up just to survive, or become a seasoned multiboxer (which, again, imo, is a bane of all mmos and ruins immersion greatly), you just have a solid mechanics using which you can play with you character and survive cloackers' attacks in most cases if you manage to maintain situational awarness all the time (mind the proposed ability for cloackers to monitor dscan activity of a victim, which allow them to exploit loopholes in their dscan patterns)

From the first glance, one can say it will leave hunters with even less kills then before. But you are missing very important point, a psychological one. Most people are reluctant to lose ships - you won't change this, take it for granted. They know that if cloaker gets close to them, they are most certanly busted - aside from the cases when you have backup force always ready to react to your disstress call (i.e. you are member of big entity). Staying aligned won't help much, there are many cases when your actions will be predictable and hunter know them too. Thats why they will safe up and stay such untill threat are gone. If you just give them a hope, it will be enough for them to go and take that risk - because of this elusive sensation that their fate is in their hands. They still will make mistakes, and will lose their ships, anyway - no one (aside from bots) can dscan indefinetly for hours, without missing a beat (remember, proposal to grant cloacker with ability to see dscan patterns of the victim). But this will trick them into thinking they can change something, if they put some efforts, transforming them (in their minds) from helpless victim to slick and tidy elusive proficient Ratter Of All Belts. That is THE mindset they need to feel good.

This will stop driving solo players and small entities out of nullsecs, and as their numbers will grow, your chances to meet some totally oblivious victim, or find some loopholes in defenses of less oblivious ones will grow in tandem.

I honestly don't think you yourself know how null sec works... Just saying, everything you say... Like conflicts with what most null secers do in null sec...

Delete local? I never said that, I did however say make new tools that might beable to take over for local and even be better with local if you became skilled with it. However, you know what else I said? I said that that would most likely take a lot of time, and ******* effort to even come up with ideas for these tools.

You recieve no challenge from mining rocks in high sec, so I don't do that, okay. That fine, not every game play type is for everyone, but clearly someone wanted to make it more exciting, just look at the current changes to industry. They made it hell-ova more challenging and more engaging, but you know what else they did? They made it so that that it still easy to access.

Next, I want to get something off my chest, cause clearly you also know nothing about null sec. Local works for BOTH the prey AND the PREDATOR, without local and no true tools to take over for local, a predator will have to stop at each and every system that shows activity on the map in the last hour, then take time to scan down that system and hope they are still there.Which they very as well might of moved on, or not even be there. And they have defender advantages. You know, something called safe spots. Though hey, I know nothing about how null sec work. So I clearly didn't know any of that information.

Certain doesn't seem like I'm helping both sides? Well, because I have noticed that you don't even read the entire subject, you just take key subjects, out of context, and attack me. That's fine, just shows how much knowledge you have on how null sec works.

"Lol? So you are looking at it from the point of view of a covops hauler." You ******* right I am, and my view seems to be more educational then your point of view, of someone that I highly doubt, that you even put your big toe into null sec, let alone low sec.

Finally "So we arn't on board if your ideas of turning null in wh space." Clearly you still can't read, and your lack of comprehension skills is starting to get frustrating.

Once again, I never said nuke local. What I said was both local and cloak are broken, but at the same time, because they are broken they are balance.

What I said was that if you want to find ways to "change cloak" then you also have to look into ways of "change local" There is no if ands or butts, *You may now laugh due to the word butts. HAHAHAHAHAH*

With your next post in which you respond to my post, if you do, though I can already see the pattern you will, please actually read not only ALL of this post, but also all of the subjects that came before it.

LOL, the arrogance is overwhelming here. You are in university or college, right? You still seem to have that "obviously I know best" attitude that kids tend to grow out of eventually.

And once again, no they aren't broken. They just don't work the way you want them to.

I don't want to change cloaks. And no, if you were to change cloaks it could very easily be done without changing local. Again, you just think they must be changed together, and that's your opinion.

Arrogance? I'm sorry, I didn't know simple fact was arrogance. I am in college, you will be correct there.

also, as for my opinion, you are right, that is my opinion, and just about everyone else as well. I mean hell, if you know how to use the search function, you will see that every thread like this dies in roughly the same manner. People demand change to afk cloaking because they can't find him, or they got hot dropped.

Other people say, you can't change cloaking until you change local because cloak is the number one balance to local.

And the thread dies, and a few days down the road, a new one pops up... And it continues that way over and over again...

This is why I keep telling people, if you want to get something changed, then you must be really ******* creative with the idea you are about to post.