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If Somer Blink pledged some 'blinkgate' profits towards future plex-for-good...
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Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-12-10 02:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Garandras
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Conclusion: If your RMT scheme is convoluted enough, people who are bad at math and don't understand how gambling works will defend it as not-RMT. Roll


I'm just saying they were not doing actual RMT.. They were making actual money but they were not actually breaking any rules.
What they were making money from is referrals to a GTC seller.. so in effect they were getting paid for advertisement and many websites do. CCP asks them to stop giving the isk bonus so they did.

They are still making real money through the same process, they are just no longer giving a bonus to the people that buy GTC's through their referral link.
So while they are maybe making less money due to the lack of bonus credit it probally hasnt overly affected them
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#42 - 2013-12-10 02:06:55 UTC
No. Somer shouldn't pledge anything to anybody.

Some folks need to pledge to take advantage of the soothing effects of Preparation H, because continuing to be assmad this long after it's done with indicates you may be suffering from hemorrhoids, or at the least pruritus ani.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#43 - 2013-12-10 02:08:45 UTC
Garandras wrote:
But they were not doing actual RMT..


Ahhh, yes they were.

They have a referral system in place and to encourage people to use that system they gave ISK bonuses.

So effectively, they valued 200,000,000 ISK + blink credits at $1.75 (or whatever real money they received back per purchase) and paid that to each player that used their referral. That's RMT - get real money, give ISK.

You can call it a 'bonus' or whatever you like, it's still RMT. Give money through them, get ISK in return.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-12-10 02:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Garandras wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Conclusion: If your RMT scheme is convoluted enough, people who are bad at math and don't understand how gambling works will defend it as not-RMT. Roll


I'm just saying they were not doing actual RMT.. They were making actual money but they were not actually breaking any rules.
What they were making money from is referrals to a GTC seller.. so in effect they were getting paid for advertisement and many websites do. CCP asks them to stop giving the isk bonus so they did.

They are still making real money through the same process, they are just no longer giving a bonus to the people that buy GTC's through their referral link.
So while they are maybe making less money due to the lack of bonus credit it probally hasnt overly affected them


They were converting ISK into real money.

Adding several intermediate steps to the process doesn't make it not-RMT.

It just makes it clever RMT.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-12-10 02:19:54 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Garandras wrote:
But they were not doing actual RMT..


Ahhh, yes they were.

They have a referral system in place and to encourage people to use that system they gave ISK bonuses.

So effectively, they valued 200,000,000 ISK + blink credits at $1.75 (or whatever real money they received back per purchase) and paid that to each player that used their referral. That's RMT - get real money, give ISK.

You can call it a 'bonus' or whatever you like, it's still RMT. Give money through them, get ISK in return.


But they were not actually giving you 'Isk'

they were giving you credit on their site not actual in game currency.. which if you were lucky you could win a prize in game, be it a Item or in game currency

In effect if I hold a Event, which get 'sponcers' that gave me Cash for advertising their product, and I hand out prizes in game does that count as RMT?
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-12-10 02:22:10 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
They were converting ISK into real money.


But they were not doing that at all.

They were getting paid to advertise a product, and offered a incetive for people to go through that means

As per my post above
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-12-10 02:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Garandras wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
They were converting ISK into real money.


But they were not doing that at all.

They were getting paid to advertise a product, and offered a incetive for people to go through that means

As per my post above


And as per my earlier post, it's really impressive how, if you make an RMT scheme just a skosh convoluted, people will be simply incapable of understanding how it's RMT.

In this case, the simple step of adding a third party to the transaction has been adequate to completely baffle you. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-12-10 02:36:07 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
And as per my earlier post, it's really impressive how, if you make an RMT scheme just a skosh convoluted, people will be simply incapable of understanding how it's RMT.

In this case, the simple step of adding a third party to the transaction has been adequate. Roll


So the EvE torney that is coming that offers Cash prizes count as RMT?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-12-10 02:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Garandras wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
And as per my earlier post, it's really impressive how, if you make an RMT scheme just a skosh convoluted, people will be simply incapable of understanding how it's RMT.

In this case, the simple step of adding a third party to the transaction has been adequate. Roll


So the EvE torney that is coming that offers Cash prizes count as RMT?


First of all: You're really trying to analogize a for-profit player's RMTing with a CCP organized tournament? Really?

Secondly: Which players are receiving in-game value in exchange for money? They're being rewarded in cash for participation and placement - no other player is receiving in-game value in exchange for that money.

There's no transaction between players, there. No transaction is not the same thing as a transaction involving 3 parties, although I see how you could totally mix those two things up.Roll

Somer received money and, in exchange, gave people "credit" on his site. More than 0% of that credit was cashed in for IG value, ergo, very basic RMT. It doesn't matter if Somer was paid by proxy.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-12-10 02:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Garandras
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Secondly: Which players are receiving in-game value in exchange for money? They're being rewarded in cash for participation and placement - no other player is receiving in-game value in exchange for that money.


So here Blink is giving you credit to participate, and you only get a reward is when you place, by having the winning ticket there is no differance there

the New Eden Open can be overlooked as RMT here because it is run by CCP

But there are other parties out there that want to hold compitions in EvE and offer cash prizes, but in your view that is RMT and not allowed
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-12-10 03:02:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Garandras wrote:
So here Blink is giving you credit to participate, and you only get a reward is you place, by having the winning ticket there is no differance there

the New Eden Open can be overlooked as RMT here because it is run by CCP

But there are other parties out there that want to hold compitions in EvE and offer cash prizes, but in your view that is RMT and not allowed


You are almost incredibly thick. Unfortunately your existence necessitated the addition of the word "almost" to the preceeding sentence.

Here's it nice and simple for you.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-12-10 03:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Garandras wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Secondly: Which players are receiving in-game value in exchange for money? They're being rewarded in cash for participation and placement - no other player is receiving in-game value in exchange for that money.


So here Blink is giving you credit to participate, and you only get a reward is you place, by having the winning ticket there is no differance there

the New Eden Open can be overlooked as RMT here because it is run by CCP


What part of, "There's no transaciton between players" did you fail to grasp? It seemed like a simple concept.


Let's see if I can deobfuscate this for you. I don't have any crayons handy, but I'll do my best to put it into terms you'll be able to digest.

Alice has a trillion isk, and $0. She runs a gambling site. It's not a very good one, all bets are settled by coin flip.
Bob sells plex. He has 100 plex, but also has $0.
Tom has $100, but zero isk.

Alice and Bob reach an agreement wherein Bob will pay Alice $1 for every plex sold through referrals.

Alice says to Tom, "Hey Tom, I will give you 100 million isk worth of credit on my gambling site if you buy a plex from Bob!"

Tom buys a plex from Bob for $20.
Bob passes $1 to Alice.

At this point, Alice has been paid $1 by Tom, with Bob acting as a proxy.

Update:

Alice has a trillion isk and $1.
Bob has 99 plex and $19.
Tom has $80, 0 isk, 1 plex, and 100 million in casino credit.

Tom says, "Hey Alice, I would like to use my casino credit!"

Tom places 10 bets of $10m each. This being a silly coinflip casino, he wins half of his wagers, and Alice pays out $50m isk.

Update:
Alice has 950 billion isk and $1.
Bob has 99 plex and $19.
Tom has $80, 0 isk, 1 plex, and 50 million isk.

This is RMT.

The presence of Bob as proxy in the payment between Alice and Tom does not make it any less RMT.

The fact that the isk was presented in the form of gambling credit does not make it any less RMT, either - it just reduces the real value of the isk to a fraction of its presented value (in this case, the expected value is 50% because the game is a fair coinflip).

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-12-10 03:14:43 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Here's it nice and simple for you.


Yes but that 'graph' is based on you get isk/items.

But you don't, you have more credit to get a greater chance of winning isk/items

If they were depositing 200mil per GTC directly into your wallet, yes that would be RMT

but they are not they are just giving you a incetive to use their product.. In the end this is making money from Advertisement and not RMT

Its the same as a real world gambling site being paid for advertising a product and offering betting credits if you buy that product as a incentive to boost sales
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#54 - 2013-12-10 03:15:18 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Tom places 10 bets of $10m each. This being a silly coinflip casino, he wins half of his wagers, and Alice pays out $50m isk.


What if Tom loses all his fictional credit because Alice's game is just a scam?
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-12-10 03:17:58 UTC
Garandras wrote:

Yes but that 'graph' is based on you get isk/items.


So according to your logic, Zero isk was cashed out by players who received somer blink bonuses?

You're just a troll at this point and I will waste no more effort on you.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-12-10 03:18:54 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Tom places 10 bets of $10m each. This being a silly coinflip casino, he wins half of his wagers, and Alice pays out $50m isk.


What if Tom loses all his fictional credit because Alice's game is just a scam?


What if the Cubs win the world series some day?

Not actually pertinent because we're not discussing a hypothetical scenario - we're dumbing down a process that actually happened.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-12-10 03:20:32 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Let's see if I can deobfuscate this for you. I don't have any crayons handy, but I'll do my best to put it into terms you'll be able to digest.

(bunch of text)

This is RMT.

The presence of Bob as proxy in the payment between Alice and Tom does not make it any less RMT.

The fact that the isk was presented in the form of gambling credit does not make it any less RMT, either - it just reduces the real value of the isk to a fraction of its presented value (in this case, the expected value is 50% because the game is a fair coinflip).


Your example is based off palyers doing actual RMT that is fair..

But somer blink was adveritisng for a legitimate buisness selling a product that is not in breach of the RMT policy
They got paid for their advertisment. That is buisness and as I said they are still doing it the only thing has changed is that they are no longer giving bonus credit..

So if I by a GTC through their link they still get paid and I still get isk and no breach of the RMT policy has been made, because they are getting paid for the advert from a legit buisness
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-12-10 03:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Garandras wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Let's see if I can deobfuscate this for you. I don't have any crayons handy, but I'll do my best to put it into terms you'll be able to digest.

(bunch of text)

This is RMT.

The presence of Bob as proxy in the payment between Alice and Tom does not make it any less RMT.

The fact that the isk was presented in the form of gambling credit does not make it any less RMT, either - it just reduces the real value of the isk to a fraction of its presented value (in this case, the expected value is 50% because the game is a fair coinflip).


Your example is based off palyers doing actual RMT that is fair..

But somer blink was adveritisng for a legitimate buisness selling a product that is not in breach of the RMT policy
They got paid for their advertisment.


*facepalm* That's EXACTLY what they were doing. How do you not understand this?

Quote:
That is buisness and as I said they are still doing it the only thing has changed is that they are no longer giving bonus credit..


Yes... you know why they're no longer giving credit?

Because doing so was ******* RMT. They shouldn't get a pass just because they're not RMTing anymore.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#59 - 2013-12-10 03:28:05 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Tom places 10 bets of $10m each. This being a silly coinflip casino, he wins half of his wagers, and Alice pays out $50m isk.


What if Tom loses all his fictional credit because Alice's game is just a scam?


What if the Cubs win the world series some day?

Not actually pertinent because we're not discussing a hypothetical scenario - we're dumbing down a process that actually happened.


What you're actually doing is beating a dead horse. 'Happened' is a great word, since it's past tense.
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-12-10 03:29:47 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Yes... you know why they're no longer giving credit?

Because doing so was ******* RMT.


Not really it was a incetive to get the product through them, its like one product offering a discount if you buy someone elses.. what to say I dont just chuck one plex worth of credit straight away at blink and then make profit off that.

They still get paid I still make isk

The only diffrence is that I have 200mil less to play on their website

(I work in Compition & Comsumer Law)