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Rubicon and nul-sec mining
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Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#1 - 2013-09-27 14:08:34 UTC
Considering Odyssey moved grav sites from scan signatures to insta-warp to anomilies, and now Rubicon is proposing interdiction nulified, insta-into-warp, insta-out of-warp interceptors, my question is what then is CCP's vision for nul-sec mining, beside the obvious pretty explosions?

Is CCP Fozzie still convinced the risk/reward is balanced?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-09-27 14:22:30 UTC
With Local still providing instant, infallible, effort-free intel, I doubt he thinks it's balanced.
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2013-09-27 14:23:59 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Considering Odyssey moved grav sites from scan signatures to insta-warp to anomilies, and now Rubicon is proposing interdiction nulified, insta-into-warp, insta-out of-warp interceptors, my question is what then is CCP's vision for nul-sec mining, beside the obvious pretty explosions?

Is CCP Fozzie still convinced the risk/reward is balanced?


Keep qq'ing carebear, go get a defense fleet problem solved.......

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#4 - 2013-09-27 14:37:24 UTC
CCP's vision is that you'll remain at your keyboard, not tabbed-out, watching local and intel channels, and clicking your D-scan.

Pretty much the same vision it had before yesterday's announcement.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#5 - 2013-09-27 15:06:39 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Considering Odyssey moved grav sites from scan signatures to insta-warp to anomilies, and now Rubicon is proposing interdiction nulified, insta-into-warp, insta-out of-warp interceptors, my question is what then is CCP's vision for nul-sec mining, beside the obvious pretty explosions?

Is CCP Fozzie still convinced the risk/reward is balanced?


Keep qq'ing carebear, go get a defense fleet problem solved.......

this is about a stupid comment. do u know how hard it is to get a fleet to sit and watch someone mine?
you cant extract enough rock to pay people enough to sit and be bored. null sec people still dont embrace the idea of an indy corp. most still think you must be pvp to be out there.
so the problem remains...
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#6 - 2013-09-27 15:18:27 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
With Local still providing instant, infallible, effort-free intel, I doubt he thinks it's balanced.


Assuming you react instantly to a hostile entering local, standard mining fit hulk, perfect navigation skills, and already passively aligned, time to get into warp is 18 seconds. Obviously at this time we do not know how fast an interceptor will be able to warp to your belt and point you, except that it will be a hell of alot faster then it currently is.

I put this question to CCP Fozzie at the launch of Odyssey and unfortunatly he dodged it instead of answering it; perhaps this time he might favour me with his wisdom?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#7 - 2013-09-27 15:38:28 UTC
Rubicon could easily be devastating for any mining, hig sec or null sec, if that auto tractor structure is badly balanced. Even now when salvaging and looting is high APM activity in noctis large part (I think close to half) of all minerals comes form looting wrecks. When this structures turns this highly labour intensive activity in to AFK process I predict price of all ore will significantly drop.

Rubicon is royaly shafting miner in the ass. And people that make living form salvaging too, their income is going to collapse also.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-09-27 16:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
With Local still providing instant, infallible, effort-free intel, I doubt he thinks it's balanced.


Assuming you react instantly to a hostile entering local, standard mining fit hulk, perfect navigation skills, and already passively aligned, time to get into warp is 18 seconds. Obviously at this time we do not know how fast an interceptor will be able to warp to your belt and point you, except that it will be a hell of alot faster then it currently is.

I put this question to CCP Fozzie at the launch of Odyssey and unfortunatly he dodged it instead of answering it; perhaps this time he might favour me with his wisdom?


Have you considered that the standard mining ship and fit might change?

Anyway, there's no such thing as passive alignment. You're aligned or you're stationary.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#9 - 2013-09-27 16:46:25 UTC
I would recommand waiting till CCP makes the new warp formula public. It can make alignment of Exhumers faster than it is now.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-09-27 16:57:04 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Assuming you react instantly to a hostile entering local, standard mining fit hulk, perfect navigation skills, and already passively aligned, time to get into warp is 18 seconds. Obviously at this time we do not know how fast an interceptor will be able to warp to your belt and point you, except that it will be a hell of alot faster then it currently is.


So reduce the risk, decrease the reward and fit a warp core stabilizer and ECM drones if you're scared.

this is not unbalanced.

Or team up with some friends and have them sit +1 out on either side of your system so you see the incoming hostiles before they get to your system -- it's not difficult.

All I'm reading is 'qq I want to be able to mine at max yield in nullsec with zero risk whilst solo', well, too bad.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-09-27 16:58:30 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
With Local still providing instant, infallible, effort-free intel, I doubt he thinks it's balanced.


Assuming you react instantly to a hostile entering local, standard mining fit hulk, perfect navigation skills, and already passively aligned, time to get into warp is 18 seconds. Obviously at this time we do not know how fast an interceptor will be able to warp to your belt and point you, except that it will be a hell of alot faster then it currently is.

Well, you have some choices, then. Use a cheaper, T1, mining ship, and/or reduce mining rate in favour of nanofibres, etc., and a faster warp out time.

This seems fair - you can choose maximum mining rate, and a high risk of getting caught, or a lower mining rate and a lower risk.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-09-27 17:04:19 UTC
Anyone who fits their barge/exumer for maximum yield in null sec is an idiot who deserves to be popped by the first hostile who enters the system.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-09-27 17:06:05 UTC
Chandaris wrote:

Or team up with some friends and have them sit +1 out on either side of your system so you see the incoming hostiles before they get to your system -- it's not difficult.

All I'm reading is 'qq I want to be able to mine at max yield in nullsec with zero risk whilst solo', well, too bad.


Yup. You see, the problems with having friends out there are 1) they don't protect you from evil w-space people, and 2) they are no more likely to be actually paying attention to intel, local, and d-scan than you are.

Let's face it, the biggest threat to miners in null is themselves - they go afk, fall asleep, or simply tab out and stop paying attention to the game, and then they get ganked. Usually roams through null consist of jumps into system after system and watching local clear as everyone runs home and logs out (assuming there was anyone in there in the first place - most of null is bloody empty).

As someone who lives in w-space, without intel or local, I have little sympathy. Mine with (armed) friends, and/or in cheap ships, with scouts out, or accept an overhead in the form of ganked ships.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#14 - 2013-09-27 17:27:54 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

This seems fair - you can choose maximum mining rate, and a high risk of getting caught, or a lower mining rate and a lower risk.


How dare you suggest that miners choose between max yield and safety! Are you some kind of cruel, inhuman animal?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-09-27 17:34:06 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
How dare you suggest that miners choose between max yield and safety! Are you some kind of cruel, inhuman animal?

If by that you mean "Is he an EVE player?" then yes, I believe that he is.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#16 - 2013-09-27 17:50:09 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Have you considered that the standard mining ship and fit might change?

Anyway, there's no such thing as passive alignment. You're aligned or you're stationary.


I know its all speculation right now as we don't have anything concrete, but 18 seconds to warp out may mean that it is simply impossible to get out of the belt in time, so I fully accept that mining fits will have to change. The point I'm trying to make is that these changes are fast creating a situation whereby the only way to protect miners is to never undock. In Odyssey CCP Fozzies reasoning was that he had just made nul-sec belts more valuable, and so there should be additional risk and hence grav sites became insta-warp to anomalies.

So.....what is he going to do now? Because those interceptors have just changed the whole game.

(FYI passive alignment, as opposed to active alignment, means aligning to where ever you want to warp to and then coming to a full stop. Because you no longer have to turn means you can shave a second or so off your warp out time.)

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-09-27 17:57:10 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Have you considered that the standard mining ship and fit might change?

Anyway, there's no such thing as passive alignment. You're aligned or you're stationary.


I know its all speculation right now as we don't have anything concrete, but 18 seconds to warp out may mean that it is simply impossible to get out of the belt in time, so I fully accept that mining fits will have to change. The point I'm trying to make is that these changes are fast creating a situation whereby the only way to protect miners is to never undock. In Odyssey CCP Fozzies reasoning was that he had just made nul-sec belts more valuable, and so there should be additional risk and hence grav sites became insta-warp to anomalies.

So.....what is he going to do now? Because those interceptors have just changed the whole game.

(FYI passive alignment, as opposed to active alignment, means aligning to where ever you want to warp to and then coming to a full stop. Because you no longer have to turn means you can shave a second or so off your warp out time.)


My understanding is that EVE physics don't work that way. You don't have a real facing in EVE only a velocity and acceleration vector. The turning of the ships is illusion passed onto you by the client. Warp times are always the same regardless of original facing when at full stop.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#18 - 2013-09-27 18:01:35 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Have you considered that the standard mining ship and fit might change?

Anyway, there's no such thing as passive alignment. You're aligned or you're stationary.


I know its all speculation right now as we don't have anything concrete, but 18 seconds to warp out may mean that it is simply impossible to get out of the belt in time, so I fully accept that mining fits will have to change. The point I'm trying to make is that these changes are fast creating a situation whereby the only way to protect miners is to never undock. In Odyssey CCP Fozzies reasoning was that he had just made nul-sec belts more valuable, and so there should be additional risk and hence grav sites became insta-warp to anomalies.

So.....what is he going to do now? Because those interceptors have just changed the whole game.

(FYI passive alignment, as opposed to active alignment, means aligning to where ever you want to warp to and then coming to a full stop. Because you no longer have to turn means you can shave a second or so off your warp out time.)


My understanding is that EVE physics don't work that way. You don't have a real facing in EVE only a velocity and acceleration vector. The turning of the ships is illusion passed onto you by the client. Warp times are always the same regardless of original facing when at full stop.


Correct. As far as EVE is concerned, your ship is a perfect sphere the size of your signature radius. The model moves according to the vector of that sphere, and not the other way around. When sitting still, you technically have no direction. You may resume movement in your prior direction by throttling up, but you accelerate no faster that any other direction, because the sphere does not have to turn.

This is why you can occasionally see freighters and other large vessels warp sideways;'the model has not caught up with the ship.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#19 - 2013-09-27 18:12:39 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Have you considered that the standard mining ship and fit might change?

Anyway, there's no such thing as passive alignment. You're aligned or you're stationary.


I know its all speculation right now as we don't have anything concrete, but 18 seconds to warp out may mean that it is simply impossible to get out of the belt in time, so I fully accept that mining fits will have to change. The point I'm trying to make is that these changes are fast creating a situation whereby the only way to protect miners is to never undock. In Odyssey CCP Fozzies reasoning was that he had just made nul-sec belts more valuable, and so there should be additional risk and hence grav sites became insta-warp to anomalies.

So.....what is he going to do now? Because those interceptors have just changed the whole game.

(FYI passive alignment, as opposed to active alignment, means aligning to where ever you want to warp to and then coming to a full stop. Because you no longer have to turn means you can shave a second or so off your warp out time.)


My understanding is that EVE physics don't work that way. You don't have a real facing in EVE only a velocity and acceleration vector. The turning of the ships is illusion passed onto you by the client. Warp times are always the same regardless of original facing when at full stop.


Correct. As far as EVE is concerned, your ship is a perfect sphere the size of your signature radius. The model moves according to the vector of that sphere, and not the other way around. When sitting still, you technically have no direction. You may resume movement in your prior direction by throttling up, but you accelerate no faster that any other direction, because the sphere does not have to turn.

This is why you can occasionally see freighters and other large vessels warp sideways;'the model has not caught up with the ship.


Completely off topic, but my understanding was that, as a result of the submarine physics the game uses, the motion of turning your sphere has the effect of reducing your acceleration, which delays you reaching your warp initiation speed.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Freya Shimane
Malevelon Roe Industries
#20 - 2013-09-27 18:40:55 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
which delays you reaching your warp initiation speed.


No matter which direction you're facing, you will take the same amount of time to reach warp. My carrier warps off practically sideways.

On the topic of this thread, though, I'm really digging these changes. Now that the deployable cyno jammer is a thing, I'm MUCH more inclined to actually fight people that try to harass my corp mates, whether they're interdiction nullified or not.

Tanking Exhumers will become more of a thing. Mining with fits optimized for yield, or by yourself in null is asking for trouble anyway. Skiffs will probably become more popular as well.
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