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Pirate faction Missile Battleship
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FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#41 - 2013-10-16 18:14:16 UTC
Expanding on the Rokh, give it rapid heavy missile launcher bonuses to sig/exp as well as damage.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#42 - 2013-10-16 22:05:45 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
To summarize the 1st post:

"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different"



I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V.

Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily.

If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn.

What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later?


I agree, my RNI with near perfect skills and some 5% implants with CN BCS's gets just over 930 dps using T2 launchers and Fury cruises.

To answer with a smart-ass, half-serious answer, it's because CCP has a hate-boner for missiles. We're supposed to be satisfied with lower dps, delayed damage, and less module selection because we get to pick damage type that always hits.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#43 - 2013-10-16 23:00:09 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:


To answer with a smart-ass, half-serious answer, it's because CCP has a hate-boner for missiles. We're supposed to be satisfied with lower dps, delayed damage, and less module selection because we get to pick damage type that always hits.



To be fair, until they actually come out and tell us I think it's safe to assume that this is in fact the case.

It's like when the Government can "neither confirm nor deny" something which pretty much means "yes, but we can't say that out loud", in this case CCP hasn't given us an answer so it probably has some truth to it.




Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-10-17 00:37:41 UTC
All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.

5% Torp and Cruise Damage
4% Armor Resists

You know you want this.



Sabik now, Sabik forever
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#45 - 2013-10-17 00:39:25 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.

5% Torp and Cruise Damage
4% Armor Resists

You know you want this.




You're half right, I know I really don't want it. The Raven is slow enough before it has sex with an Amarr ship and you start adding armor plates.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#46 - 2013-10-17 00:56:52 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
You're half right, I know I really don't want it. The Raven is slow enough before it has sex with an Amarr ship and you start adding armor plates.

Sure, it's not a Machariel - but the RNI isn't a slouch, either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#47 - 2013-10-17 01:00:05 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.

5% Torp and Cruise Damage
4% Armor Resists

You know you want this.






Too slow, not enough range, do not want. But if putting that in game gives us a better shot at having a real pirate hull CM spewing BS then I'm all for it. Not that either of these things will become reality.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#48 - 2013-10-17 01:38:08 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maybe with the introduction of the SOE ships they will push Guristas ships closer to missile ships.


Honestly I hope they just scrap drones entirely on Guristas ships and focus on making them heavy tanking shield missile brawlers- AFAIK there aren't any of these right now.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#49 - 2013-10-17 01:54:05 UTC
I want an EoM Deathlord
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-10-17 03:40:54 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
To summarize the 1st post:

"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different"



I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V.

Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily.

If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn.

What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later?




fit torps.....


Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange.


CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol.

Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still.

Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles.




scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#51 - 2013-10-17 05:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Zan Shiro wrote:
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
To summarize the 1st post:

"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different"



I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V.

Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily.

If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn.

What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later?




fit torps.....


Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange.


CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol.

Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still.

Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles.






*Asinine reply about torps being useless after the nerf*
Also, torps aren't the point of this, the point is that missiles don't have a pirate faction and we're insulted that they created an entirely new line of faction ships and barely threw missile pilots a few bread crumbs instead of listening to the appeals of missile pilots.


Edited because I'm too many beers in to make a good case for why torps are broken.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-10-17 05:11:45 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maybe with the introduction of the SOE ships they will push Guristas ships closer to missile ships.


Honestly I hope they just scrap drones entirely on Guristas ships and focus on making them heavy tanking shield missile brawlers- AFAIK there aren't any of these right now.


Never heard of a SFI I assume.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#53 - 2013-10-17 06:46:14 UTC
Torpedoes suck - there's really no other way to put it. If you want to make torpedoes interesting cut the flight time to 2 seconds and give them a base 10,000 m/sec velocity. That's a base 20km range (which torpedoes need buffed), and no ones going to be complaining about the damage then. Why should they be slow and lumbering anyway? The explosion radius is huge so we know there's not much for guidance, and the range is extremely short so obviously they pack more warhead for a faster delivery. I'd also increase the rate of fire by maybe 5-10% on torpedoes so they're a bit faster.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#54 - 2013-10-17 11:36:13 UTC
How about actually useful Worm/Gila? Make them straight missile ships with drone velocity bonuses or something. I think there isn't enough imagination being used for these gurista ships.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#55 - 2013-10-17 12:29:47 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
How about actually useful Worm/Gila? Make them straight missile ships with drone velocity bonuses or something. I think there isn't enough imagination being used for these gurista ships.


But then people would cry about not having any "real" pirate droneboats. You're taking away the one turd and turning it into another turd.

Als to respond to the one crying about Cruise's having a lower maximum damage than lets say blasters; maybe that's because most blasters need tracking and dont hit over 100km.

You guys have to remember, besides explosm velocity and such missiles always have perfect "tracking", combine that with decent range and no cap usage you have a pretty easy win weapon system. Its only natural it does less (applied) dps compared to other weapon systems.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#56 - 2013-10-17 12:44:50 UTC
I'm pretty sure the day a T2 Khanid Abaddon exists, the lack of a CNR upgrade for missile hell death will be resolved.

Of course, I just want a Khabaddon >.>

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#57 - 2013-10-17 14:56:15 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

fit torps.....

Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange.

CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol.

Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still.

Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles



Okay, after some investigating I have come to a conclusion...ish.

-----------------------------dmg spread, SR LR
hi dmg Cms vs Torps (all)---- 294, 888 - 1182
hi dmg rail vs blaster Vindi---- 560, 900 - 1460
hi dmg arty vs ACs Mach------ 334, 801 - 1135
hi dmg tachs vs pulses NM--- 152, 931 - 1083
averages-------------------------- 335, 880 - 1215
All Vs, no implants, 4 tech II damage mods in lows.
(SR/LR denote short range max dmg ammo and long range max dmg ammo)

My conclusion is;

I think this says more about lasers than any of the other platforms and puts me in a bit of a bind...

However to be fair, I was basing my assumptions off what are the most common fits. How many people fit rails on a Vindi? Or use arty Machs? You have to have implants and/or fitting mods to make that work even with perfect skills. Although people do it in Incursions because "dat alpha" so they make good sniper boats. But outside that niche It just doesn't make sense to do it. The Vindi doesn't have enough lock range to properly take advantage of rails, although it has no issue making the fit work otherwise. Torps are great paper DPS, but in practice only the Navy Raven and Golem can use them to "full" effect.

In short, I do see your point but in practice I'm not sure if it really matters that much. There are constraints that make certain things just "not work" even if "on paper" it looks like it should.
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