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sick of plex prices

Author
Grath Telkin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2011-11-02 22:44:48 UTC
fuer0n wrote:


nice cover sonny. i hope they take away your accounts if you are up to what i think you lot are. and inform the tax man to make sure your paying revenue on all your incomes.



At first I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber than the Thorn guy posting.


Then I saw the PIE guy complaining that PLEX allowed Pay to Win strategies.


Then I saw your post.


I am frankly astonished that that lot of you haven't suffered some tragic real world accident due to the absolute highest levels of stupidity and short sightedness ever encased in one human body.


Thorn, you are dumb. There are no other words to covert it.

PIE guys, people will buy money in MMO's, its a historical fact, you can't stop it, fighting it takes millions of dollars and intrusive software that EVE players have flat out said is a no go, so circumventing that by legally allowing a method was the obvious cheapest/best choice. Denial of that basically makes you thorn.

Then this last guy.....I have no words, because you make the first two guys look like god damn rocket scientists.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Jita Alt666
#162 - 2011-11-02 22:46:26 UTC
Anya Ohaya wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
classic case of inflation. eve has no real isk sinks. its only going to go higher. deal with it.


A rise in the price of one item, or even a handful is not inflation.

The most likely explanation is a reduced supply of plex.

Eve has plenty of ISK sinks, and with the increasing abundance of LP there will be more and more ISK dumped into LP stores.



The biggest ISK sink, the supercapital class is being nerfed in the next patch.
Demon View
Doomheim
#163 - 2011-11-02 22:48:50 UTC
Anya Ohaya wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
classic case of inflation. eve has no real isk sinks. its only going to go higher. deal with it.


A rise in the price of one item, or even a handful is not inflation.

The most likely explanation is a reduced supply of plex.

Eve has plenty of ISK sinks, and with the increasing abundance of LP there will be more and more ISK dumped into LP stores.


CCP have the stats, but consider:

A PLEX buyer (isk->PLEX) wants to buy a PLEX every month for every one of his accounts.

A PLEX seller (money->PLEX) wants to buy a PLEX... eh, whenever. Maybe only once, to get things started. Maybe after he gets podded with +5s in.

A PLEX seller who wants to fund a specific purchase (money->Aeon) will purchase less PLEX as the price (PLEX->isk) rises. As prices are observed to rise, occasional PLEX sellers who just want extra isk, since they're not on a schedule like PLEX buyers are, can sit and wait comfortably to see if prices continue to rise. And when they do sell, the higher price means that they're content to not sell PLEX for longer.

And whereas the PLEX buyers brag proudly about playing for 'free', and tell others to get in on this awesome system, and are seen in the forums even to have a sense of entitlement over the price (PLEX->isk) of PLEX, the PLEX sellers tend to silence, and are stigmatized to an extent.

It's certainly not unbelievable to me that five-PLEX-a-month 'clockwork' demand is outpacing the 'whenever' supply.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#164 - 2011-11-02 22:54:59 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
The biggest ISK sink, the supercapital class is being nerfed in the next patch.
…and they are ISK sinks, how, exactly?
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2011-11-02 22:59:08 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
fuer0n wrote:


nice cover sonny. i hope they take away your accounts if you are up to what i think you lot are. and inform the tax man to make sure your paying revenue on all your incomes.



At first I thought this thread couldn't get any dumber than the Thorn guy posting.


Then I saw the PIE guy complaining that PLEX allowed Pay to Win strategies.


Then I saw your post.


I am frankly astonished that that lot of you haven't suffered some tragic real world accident due to the absolute highest levels of stupidity and short sightedness ever encased in one human body.


Thorn, you are dumb. There are no other words to covert it.

PIE guys, people will buy money in MMO's, its a historical fact, you can't stop it, fighting it takes millions of dollars and intrusive software that EVE players have flat out said is a no go, so circumventing that by legally allowing a method was the obvious cheapest/best choice. Denial of that basically makes you thorn.

Then this last guy.....I have no words, because you make the first two guys look like god damn rocket scientists.


whats the matter? isk not selling so converting it into plex to sell cheaper than ccp can?
Jita Alt666
#166 - 2011-11-02 23:05:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
The biggest ISK sink, the supercapital class is being nerfed in the next patch.
…and they are ISK sinks, how, exactly?


They are not. Please keep up with quality and factuality of my posting in this thread. I am simply attempting to lead some poor saps to the rather vacuous and completely incorrect conclusion that plex prices are being manipulated by angry supercap pilots.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#167 - 2011-11-02 23:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Haphorn
From an accounting perspective, Thorn Galen is right on one thing (although he is way off with his math).

There is a critical step that people here are missing.

1. Player A buys GTC online and converts the GTC to PLEX.

2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.

Those are the only three conditions in which cash in limbo becomes unstuck and is no longer deferred income.

3. If conditions A or C are met, CCP keeps the cash and marks it as service income.

3.1. If condition B is met, CCP doesn't keep the cash so it pays the cash to a charity.

If you consider how PLEX is now commonly used as a traded commodity and thus some traders might just simply hold the unused PLEX for future trades, that means there is a great deal of cash stuck in limbo. How much? Only CCP knows.

But regardless, CCP doesn't lose money this way. They lose money when players unsub.

Of course, I could be wrong as well. Can anyone come up with a better theory?

Adapt or Die

Mirima Thurander
#168 - 2011-11-02 23:27:28 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
PLEX for gametime is negatively affecting CCP's cashflow.

Here's a simplistic scenario :-

I Spend $10 for a PLEX on the site.
You who have billions of ISK buy the PLEX for 400Million ISK
You buy more.
And more.
You use a PLEX to fund an account, however many you may have, 1 or 20, does not matter.
You do not pay $20 to sub for a couple of months, not ever.
Say 50,000 accounts on the system.
10,000 are paying hard cash for subs
5,000 are paying hard cash for PLEX
There's a defecit of real money, real money not going to CCP.
Funding an account by buying and using ingame PLEX is a loss for CCP.

CCP is bleeding badly because of PLEX for subs.






you do know someone payed $ for that plex to sell for isk right?

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#169 - 2011-11-02 23:27:36 UTC
Wow. PLEX is at 450? It has gone up... yikes...

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Demon View
Doomheim
#170 - 2011-11-02 23:34:38 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.


It's useful for them to consider the potential liability when they say that they'll accept PLEX donations, and it's useful for them to do real-money accounting with the NEX store, but there's otherwise no 'deferred income' here. They get the money when the PLEX is created.
John Wilkes Booth
Universal Express
#171 - 2011-11-03 00:29:03 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
From an accounting perspective, Thorn Galen is right on one thing (although he is way off with his math).

There is a critical step that people here are missing.

1. Player A buys GTC online and converts the GTC to PLEX.

2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.

Those are the only three conditions in which cash in limbo becomes unstuck and is no longer deferred income.

3. If conditions A or C are met, CCP keeps the cash and marks it as service income.

3.1. If condition B is met, CCP doesn't keep the cash so it pays the cash to a charity.

If you consider how PLEX is now commonly used as a traded commodity and thus some traders might just simply hold the unused PLEX for future trades, that means there is a great deal of cash stuck in limbo. How much? Only CCP knows.

But regardless, CCP doesn't lose money this way. They lose money when players unsub.

Of course, I could be wrong as well. Can anyone come up with a better theory?




But you are talking about the books. How they record it. But while that sale should be recorded as deferred income (presuming CCP is on GAAP or another system that follows that rule (IFRS?)), they are by no means forced to put that cash in an untouchable escrow account until the plex is redeemed. They have the cash, and they can spend it. Don't forget about the other side of that entry. They record the cash in a regular cash account, not restricted cash account (CCP is not a NFP).

And you forgot scenario D) Plex is destroyed when in the cargo of a ship that goes boom. This would like a gift card that never gets used.

Ok, sorry for this becoming an accounting thread :)
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#172 - 2011-11-03 00:30:15 UTC
Demon View wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:
2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.


It's useful for them to consider the potential liability when they say that they'll accept PLEX donations, and it's useful for them to do real-money accounting with the NEX store, but there's otherwise no 'deferred income' here. They get the money when the PLEX is created.


So what you're saying is that CCP is willing to mark the cash in limbo as just service income and accept the burden of paying taxes even though some of that cash could potentially be used for donations (which can be tax exempt - depending on local tax laws)?

Adapt or Die

Taedrin
Virtues Corporation
#173 - 2011-11-03 00:39:15 UTC
John Wilkes Booth wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:
From an accounting perspective, Thorn Galen is right on one thing (although he is way off with his math).

There is a critical step that people here are missing.

1. Player A buys GTC online and converts the GTC to PLEX.

2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.

Those are the only three conditions in which cash in limbo becomes unstuck and is no longer deferred income.

3. If conditions A or C are met, CCP keeps the cash and marks it as service income.

3.1. If condition B is met, CCP doesn't keep the cash so it pays the cash to a charity.

If you consider how PLEX is now commonly used as a traded commodity and thus some traders might just simply hold the unused PLEX for future trades, that means there is a great deal of cash stuck in limbo. How much? Only CCP knows.

But regardless, CCP doesn't lose money this way. They lose money when players unsub.

Of course, I could be wrong as well. Can anyone come up with a better theory?




But you are talking about the books. How they record it. But while that sale should be recorded as deferred income (presuming CCP is on GAAP or another system that follows that rule (IFRS?)), they are by no means forced to put that cash in an untouchable escrow account until the plex is redeemed. They have the cash, and they can spend it. Don't forget about the other side of that entry. They record the cash in a regular cash account, not restricted cash account (CCP is not a NFP).

And you forgot scenario D) Plex is destroyed when in the cargo of a ship that goes boom. This would like a gift card that never gets used.

Ok, sorry for this becoming an accounting thread :)


I love it when someone who actually knows what they are talking about posts.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2011-11-03 01:21:06 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
PLEX for gametime is negatively affecting CCP's cashflow.

Here's a simplistic scenario :-

I Spend $10 for a PLEX on the site.
You who have billions of ISK buy the PLEX for 400Million ISK
You buy more.
And more.
You use a PLEX to fund an account, however many you may have, 1 or 20, does not matter.
You do not pay $20 to sub for a couple of months, not ever.
Say 50,000 accounts on the system.
10,000 are paying hard cash for subs
5,000 are paying hard cash for PLEX
There's a defecit of real money, real money not going to CCP.
Funding an account by buying and using ingame PLEX is a loss for CCP.

CCP is bleeding badly because of PLEX for subs.

What the hell kind of math is this? Are you using imaginary numbers?
John Wilkes Booth
Universal Express
#175 - 2011-11-03 02:00:50 UTC  |  Edited by: John Wilkes Booth
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Demon View wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:
2. PLEX that is unused and sitting in the hangar adds what CCP would most likely call "Deferred Income". 1x unused PLEX = Cash stuck in limbo (no one can touch it) until one of three conditions are met: ***NOTE: Even PLEX that is bought with ISK by another player is still unused PLEX.***

A) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for game time.
B) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) donates the PLEX to a cause hosted by CCP.
C) Player A (or anyone other than Player A that bought the PLEX from him/her) redeems the PLEX for Aurum.


It's useful for them to consider the potential liability when they say that they'll accept PLEX donations, and it's useful for them to do real-money accounting with the NEX store, but there's otherwise no 'deferred income' here. They get the money when the PLEX is created.


So what you're saying is that CCP is willing to mark the cash in limbo as just service income and accept the burden of paying taxes even though some of that cash could potentially be used for donations (which can be tax exempt - depending on local tax laws)?



Again, all of this is dependent on the laws ccp is working under, which I do not claim to know, and when it comes to taxes, corporations have some accounting method options for tax purposes, but it is very likely CCP pays taxes on the income they get from plex sales, even if they are not yet redeemed. It is called a book to tax difference. Taxes do not run on the same system as financial reporting standards.

If CCP reports on a cash basis, they absolutely would pay taxes in the period of the sale. If CCP is on accrual basis, I'd have to research it more. Generally I'd say deferred revenue (unearned revenue) that would be taxed when earned. The revenue could be recorded as unearned for a max of (2 years?) before it had to be recorded as earned revenue and taxed. However, the fact that plex can never be refunded for real money may throw a wrench in the normal rules.

The fact that CCP has promotions to redeem plex for charity is irrelevant and unrelated. If you redeem plex for a charity, ccp would simply credit cash, debit a charitable donation expense.

But no way would CCP have to "mark" this cash in any way. It is simply cash collected. What gets "marked" is the revenue figure, which is a purely book figure. It has nothing to do with the cash CCP can or can't use, just what it will eventually pay in taxes.