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Armor Tanking viable for PvE?
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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-09-22 07:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
The reason people use shields for PvE is fairly simple. You don't need to fit tackle so you put your tank in the mid slots and fill your lows with damage mods. More damage mods = more dps = more isk. You can armor tank for PvE but most of the time it's much less efficient.


People use shield tanks in PvE because the Gist line of shield boosters is phenomenally overpowered and has 400% greater cap efficiency than Centus A and X-type repairers. That's pretty much the beginning and end of it. WIth any other kind of shield booster, you need cap mods and you need mid slots for those, just like armor tankers need low slots for damage.

Armor tanking would be superior to shield tanking if it wasn't for Gist boosters, this one line of modules is 100% of the reason for why shield tanks are dominant.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#22 - 2013-09-22 09:04:53 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
The reason people use shields for PvE is fairly simple. You don't need to fit tackle so you put your tank in the mid slots and fill your lows with damage mods. More damage mods = more dps = more isk. You can armor tank for PvE but most of the time it's much less efficient.


People use shield tanks in PvE because the Gist line of shield boosters is phenomenally overpowered and has 400% greater cap efficiency than Centus A and X-type repairers. That's pretty much the beginning and end of it. WIth any other kind of shield booster, you need cap mods and you need mid slots for those, just like armor tankers need low slots for damage.

Armor tanking would be superior to shield tanking if it wasn't for Gist boosters, this one line of modules is 100% of the reason for why shield tanks are dominant.


Eh, not sure you've tried similar armor reppers then. Gist line is nice but you can get similar armor tank numbers for way less money. Its mostly because the damage mods are in the lows TBPH. The armor fit I listed earlier is a good example. Its about halfway in between a Gist B and C but costs less than either.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-09-22 09:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Cipher Jones wrote:
Eh, not sure you've tried similar armor reppers then. Gist line is nice but you can get similar armor tank numbers for way less money. Its mostly because the damage mods are in the lows TBPH. The armor fit I listed earlier is a good example. Its about halfway in between a Gist B and C but costs less than either.


If you eliminate the Gist boosters from the equation you can make 3-damagemod armor tank setups that easily compete with 3-damagemod shield setups.

It's the fact that Gist boosters use so little cap that you can run an XL booster off nothing but CCC rigs and therefore can fill your midslots with tank instead of cap rechargers that makes shield tanking so dominant.

If you fit a Pith-X XLSB on a navy raven you need seven cap mods (three rigs and four rechargers) to get it cap stable. A Gist-X XLSB is cap stable on three CCC rigs. It uses 49% of the cap and 74% of the CPU of the Pith-X, yet provides 82% of the tank.
Ami Quintero
Royal Trading
#24 - 2013-09-22 10:56:40 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
People use shield tanks in PvE because the Gist line of shield boosters is phenomenally overpowered.


In my experience, most people are using Pith for the higher throughput, and nobody cares about cap stability. Also, the rep boosts in Ody 1.1 are a (relative) nerf to deadspace shield boosters.

There are lots of reasons shield tanking is popular. The main ones are missiles and low-slot damage mods.

You'll notice, though, that there are cases where those don't hold true. The low-SP Domi sniper, for example, has plenty of low-slots left over for tank after fitting DDAs, but it's very difficult to cram a shield tank + prop mod + omni TLs into its 5 mid slots.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#25 - 2013-09-22 11:14:23 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
If you fit a Pith-X XLSB on a navy raven you need seven cap mods (three rigs and four rechargers) to get it cap stable.


Why would you want it to be cap stable? You should prioritise DPS over tank always for PVE. You only need enough tank to sustain you through peak DPS.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-09-22 11:45:14 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
If you fit a Pith-X XLSB on a navy raven you need seven cap mods (three rigs and four rechargers) to get it cap stable.


Why would you want it to be cap stable? You should prioritise DPS over tank always for PVE. You only need enough tank to sustain you through peak DPS.


When you're flying a drone, missile, or projectile platform, I absolutely agree: you don't always need reps, but if something goes wrong, you need a lot of them, fast. For that, if I had the budget, I'd go with Pith over Gist.

However, for a ship like the Nightmare, where there are other demands on capacitor energy besides the tank, I'd think the Gist's capacitor efficiency would make a lot of sense, especially since there's only so much room in the shot locker for cap booster charges. Never flown a Nightmare myself, but I've flown laser boats and other cap-hungry ships, and found instances where I'd have to shut down the guns or risk the tank being overwhelmed.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-09-22 12:25:07 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
If you fit a Pith-X XLSB on a navy raven you need seven cap mods (three rigs and four rechargers) to get it cap stable.


Why would you want it to be cap stable? You should prioritise DPS over tank always for PVE. You only need enough tank to sustain you through peak DPS.


You don't really, but you're missing the point. Whatever cap regen point you think is acceptable, you need half the number of cap mods to reach that point for the Gist boosters than for any other kind of booster.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#28 - 2013-09-22 12:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Marc Callan wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
If you fit a Pith-X XLSB on a navy raven you need seven cap mods (three rigs and four rechargers) to get it cap stable.


Why would you want it to be cap stable? You should prioritise DPS over tank always for PVE. You only need enough tank to sustain you through peak DPS.


When you're flying a drone, missile, or projectile platform, I absolutely agree: you don't always need reps, but if something goes wrong, you need a lot of them, fast. For that, if I had the budget, I'd go with Pith over Gist.

However, for a ship like the Nightmare, where there are other demands on capacitor energy besides the tank, I'd think the Gist's capacitor efficiency would make a lot of sense, especially since there's only so much room in the shot locker for cap booster charges. Never flown a Nightmare myself, but I've flown laser boats and other cap-hungry ships, and found instances where I'd have to shut down the guns or risk the tank being overwhelmed.

mids on my npoc are
sensor boost
tracking computer
Mjd
and a navy cap injector
Because **** cap stability.

You're bang on there man full rack of tychoons in particular will eat your cap in a matter of seconds when the tank is going,

ill post the fit when I get home

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#29 - 2013-09-22 12:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Aivo Dresden wrote:

I've ran a very similar fit in the past. It definitely worked, I've not tried it since the CS and medium rail changes a few weeks ago though. It definitely worked before. It perhaps wasn't the fastest ship, but it was a lot of fun to play. :)

Does it still work (well)? :P


If it worked before, it works even better now man. In fact, for the factions the T2 resists are optimal this is better than a rail Proteus or a legion. You can read more about it here...C:
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