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Why are capitals banned in high sec?

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PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#81 - 2013-09-20 23:34:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
If I have to go with a definition of capitals, which one do you think I should use: the one some random guy provides, or the one provided by ccp?

CCP doesn't provide a definition — only an arbitrary designation.

Oh, and the wiki is not a reliable source for anything, especially not the CCP-exclusive and locked-down pages.

And that arbitrary designation is what the discussion is about. And that arbitrary designation is provided by CCP, who also happens to provide a definition for said designation.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2013-09-20 23:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PotatoOverdose wrote:
And that arbitrary designation is what the discussion is about. And that arbitrary designation is provided by CCP, who also happens to provide a definition for said designation.

…except that they don't provide any kind of definition for that designation, which is why this discussion keeps popping up when people try to resolve the inconsistent arbitrariness of it all.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#83 - 2013-09-20 23:37:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, nothing I said was wrong, according to CCP or otherwise.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

They're allowed into highsec, can be built in highsec, and can use stargates. They're not capitals.

The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.

So you were wrong.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2013-09-20 23:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.
…which don't actually fit under the (non-official) description of what makes a capital ship a capital ship that some players invented when writing that page:

“A capital ship is any of a class of ships requiring the Capital Ship Assembly Array to construct” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs don't.

“Capital ships are also unique within Eve in that they cannot use the jump gate network” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs can.

“Only capitals are able to fit capital-class tanking modules” — which Orcas, freighters, and JFs can't.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-09-20 23:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
But Orcas and jump freighters and freighters are really really big! That means they're capital ships! Big = capital ship!


Anyway, you know what other subclass of ship has a clear and concise definition not given by CCP? Supercapitals. As in, the two ship types incapable of docking in stations or traversing any kind of wormhole, and which must be built in Capital Ship Assembly Arrays (which require sovereignty and an ihub upgrade).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#86 - 2013-09-20 23:46:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.
…which don't actually fit under the (non-official) description of what makes a capital ship a capital ship that some players invented when writing that page:

“A capital ship is any of a class of ships requiring the Capital Ship Assembly Array to construct” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs don't.

“Capital ships are also unique within Eve in that they cannot use the jump gate network” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs can.

“Only capitals are able to fit capital-class tanking modules” — which Orcas, freighters, and JFs can't.


If you feel strongly about it, change the article on CCP's wiki. Twisted Until then, I see orcas, freighter, and jump freighters listed as capitals, they're capitals.

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#87 - 2013-09-20 23:48:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But Orcas and jump freighters and freighters are really really big! That means they're capital ships! Big = capital ship!


Anyway, you know what other subclass of ship has a clear and concise definition not given by CCP? Supercapitals. As in, the two ship types incapable of docking in stations or traversing any kind of wormhole, and which must be built in Capital Ship Assembly Arrays (which require sovereignty and an ihub upgrade).

That's cool.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, nothing I said was wrong, according to CCP or otherwise.

You were still wrong though.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-09-20 23:51:19 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.
…which don't actually fit under the (non-official) description of what makes a capital ship a capital ship that some players invented when writing that page:

“A capital ship is any of a class of ships requiring the Capital Ship Assembly Array to construct” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs don't.

“Capital ships are also unique within Eve in that they cannot use the jump gate network” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs can.

“Only capitals are able to fit capital-class tanking modules” — which Orcas, freighters, and JFs can't.


If you feel strongly about it, change the article on CCP's wiki. Twisted Until then, I see orcas, freighter, and jump freighters listed as capitals, they're capitals.


I have no intention of starting an edit war. It's preposterous however that merely editing a wiki article should be enough to change your opinion.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#89 - 2013-09-20 23:53:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.
…which don't actually fit under the (non-official) description of what makes a capital ship a capital ship that some players invented when writing that page:

“A capital ship is any of a class of ships requiring the Capital Ship Assembly Array to construct” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs don't.

“Capital ships are also unique within Eve in that they cannot use the jump gate network” — which Orcas, freighters and JFs can.

“Only capitals are able to fit capital-class tanking modules” — which Orcas, freighters, and JFs can't.


If you feel strongly about it, change the article on CCP's wiki. Twisted Until then, I see orcas, freighter, and jump freighters listed as capitals, they're capitals.


I have no intention of starting an edit war. It's preposterous however that merely editing a wiki article should be enough to change your opinion.

It would hardly change my opinion. What CCP does or does not do after the change to the wiki might change my position.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-09-20 23:57:53 UTC
I don't think CCP considers it particularly important. I'm sure if they were bothered about it enough they'd clarify it.

But hell, you can apparently sell supers and titans on market even though doing so takes devhax.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2013-09-20 23:58:26 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
It would hardly change my opinion. What CCP does or does not do after the change to the wiki might change my position.

That only raises the question of what exact characteristic it is you use to choose to see them as capital ships. Sounds like it's just market placement…

Of course, going by the market placement, HACs were not cruisers for the longest time. Lol
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#92 - 2013-09-21 00:04:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
It would hardly change my opinion. What CCP does or does not do after the change to the wiki might change my position.

That only raises the question of what exact characteristic it is you use to choose to see them as capital ships. Sounds like it's just market placement…

Of course, going by the market placement, HACs were not cruisers for the longest time. Lol


I like this:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But Orcas and jump freighters and freighters are really really big! That means they're capital ships! Big = capital ship!


Super dooper big shiny = capital!

Honestly, they're listed as capitals in game, they're listed as capitals on the official wiki, ccp considers them capitals. They're capitals, until CCP says otherwise. Appeal to authority argument for the win.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#93 - 2013-09-21 00:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I like this: Super dooper big shiny = capital!
So if the rendering loop was bugged and they only showed up the size of pods, you'd no longer consider them capitals? Lol

Quote:
Honestly, they're listed as capitals in game, they're listed as capitals on the official wiki, ccp considers them capitals. They're capitals, until CCP says otherwise. Appeal to authority argument for the win.
Again, they're listed as capitals in the market — in the inventory, there isn't even such a classification as a capship; some non-authority has listed them in an unofficial wiki page; and CCP doesn't offer any direct consideration at all. The closest is their rules against getting new capital ships into highsec — a rule that explicitly does not include the three ship classes in question.

So they really have to say anything at all before they can start to say “otherwise”.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#94 - 2013-09-21 00:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I like this: Super dooper big shiny = capital!
So if the rendering loop was bugged and they only showed up the size of pods, you'd no longer consider them capitals? Lol


Yes, if titans were the size of capsules, I would spit on them from on high in my shiny Ibis and feel a tremendous swelling of masculine pride at my superior carriage.

Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Honestly, they're listed as capitals in game, they're listed as capitals on the official wiki, ccp considers them capitals. They're capitals, until CCP says otherwise. Appeal to authority argument for the win.
Again, they're listed as capitals in the market — in the inventory, there isn't even such a classification as a capship; some non-authority has listed them in an unofficial wiki page; and CCP doesn't offer any direct consideration at all. The closest is their rules against getting new capital ships into highsec — a rule that explicitly does not include the three ship classes in question.

So they really have to say anything at all before they can start to say “otherwise”.


The official wiki lists them as capitals, feel free to change it if you like. We'll see what happens. They are listed in game as capitals. Until both are changed, they're capitals.

You can say they don't fit in well with capitals until you're blue in the face, I don't care.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2013-09-21 00:22:01 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The official wiki lists them as capitals, feel free to change it if you like.
…except, of course, that it's not an official page — those are locked down and under the control of CCP (and thus even more unreliable than the player-made ones).

Quote:
They are listed in game as capitals.
…in the market, but not the inventory. That's part of the hilarity of it all: the game itself can't make up its mind. Lol

Quote:
You can say they don't fit in well with capitals until you're blue in the face, I don't care.
I'm merely asking you what characteristics you've chosen to follow to make such a firm statement. I could just be mean and ask you which characteristics you've chosen to ignore to come to this conclusion, but that's just a matter of six of one or half a dozen of the other…
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#96 - 2013-09-21 00:38:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The official wiki lists them as capitals, feel free to change it if you like.
…except, of course, that it's not an official page — those are locked down and under the control of CCP (and thus even more unreliable than the player-made ones).

Quote:
They are listed in game as capitals.
…in the market, but not the inventory. That's part of the hilarity of it all: the game itself can't make up its mind. Lol

Quote:
You can say they don't fit in well with capitals until you're blue in the face, I don't care.
I'm merely asking you what characteristics you've chosen to follow to make such a firm statement. I could just be mean and ask you which characteristics you've chosen to ignore to come to this conclusion, but that's just a matter of six of one or half a dozen of the other…



Personally, I don't care much for the orca as a capital. Freighters are capitals because they're the only thing that can put down a station (or outpost, whatever). Don't know what makes something more "capital" than that. Jump freighters, good luck running a reasonably sized operation outside of hisec without jump freighters. JF's probably have a greater impact on the game than any other ship class, with the possible exception of carriers.

But those are my impressions, it doesn't really matter that I don't think the Orca should be considered a capital, because objectively CCP and the game considers them capitals. Until that changes, until ccp says "not a capital", and the market/wiki reflect that, it's a capital.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#97 - 2013-09-21 00:51:37 UTC
Do people want to use their purple items so much in highsec they decided that running l4s in a carrier is the way to go

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#98 - 2013-09-21 00:55:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Do people want to use their purple items so much in highsec they decided that running l4s in a carrier is the way to go

Nah, it's the Phoenix. It's the new Raven.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-09-21 04:34:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Which mechanisms?

Surely you're not arguing that they shouldn't be in high sec because it would be too hard/costly to gank them?
Of course I am, because that's one of the reasons they're not allowed there any more.

Except it would be extremely easy to gank them wouldn't it? Unless they were in NPC corporation. Which would negate any use for them since the only reason to even have them in high sec would be for wars. You're not going to suicide people with them. You can't do missions with them because of gates and ship restrictions.

Against subcaps they're worse then battleships in terms of DPS. Against subcaps they're very easy to kill.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#100 - 2013-09-21 05:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Does Chribba still have that highsec mining carrier?