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Crime & Punishment

 
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The "War" On The Sandbox.
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Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2013-09-18 00:35:35 UTC
I don't want to trumpet my own opinions or make an unnecessary thread saying "click to my blog!" but I wrote an opinion piece on the new TOS and how it effects us of the more dastardly nature and peoples perception thus far. This isn't a crazed rant or anything just I'd like peoples opinions here who frequent C&P whom may be effected.

The new article is here: http://hoistthecolors.org/?p=204

I'm rather interested if anyone here has done impersonation scams or even if this as seen as a breach on the sandbox element in general. I've taken the liberty of linking a few other opinion pieces from The Mittani (credit goes to them for those Cool) so it hopefully ties in together.
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#2 - 2013-09-18 00:58:48 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
I don't want to trumpet my own opinions or make an unnecessary thread saying "click to my blog!" but I just did.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2013-09-18 01:01:13 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
I don't want to trumpet my own opinions or make an unnecessary thread saying "click to my blog!" but I just did.



I guess that makes sense doesn't it? Lol
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4 - 2013-09-18 01:26:39 UTC
To be fair, you at least explain what your article is about in a TL:DR fashion. There are certain bloggers around here who just drop a link with nothing to go on...and then others who have supposedly retired who link their blog and then transpose the entire article into the thread as well.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-09-18 06:22:04 UTC
I did that like one time! (Or like three times, maybe. Don't bring facts into this.)

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2013-09-18 06:32:09 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I did that like one time! (Or like three times, maybe. Don't bring facts into this.)


lol
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#7 - 2013-09-18 06:58:09 UTC
Agreed.

Principle reasons for opposing these new changes aside, I currently run afoul of them (both the "no lying" and the "no actions against noobs") in several ways that I had no worries about in August.

I have characters that take significant advantage of people running the Sister's arc for my own gain. In addition to putting up lowball buy orders (which I have now been told via self petition is actionable, hilariously) I also have been known to do my share of can baiting.

But, the "no lying" part, I am considerably in greater violation for.

I have one corp spy (who remains undiscovered) posing as an alt of someone else. And I currently have one awox in the works whereby I am pretending to be a teenage Romanian girl(when I told them I was a girl, they just let me in, no API or anything). I have yet to get an answer as to whether lying about who you are in real life is against the new ToS also, sent in a ticket about the third day.

So yeah, I have used these tactics myself. And yes, I do see this as encroaching on the sandbox nature of the game. If you can't play the meta anymore, half the appeal of the game is gone. All this lying, paranoia, backstabbing, that the game was built on (that they have a flipping advertisement for) is suddenly within reach of being a prohibited activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2013-09-18 07:07:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Agreed.

Principle reasons for opposing these new changes aside, I currently run afoul of them (both the "no lying" and the "no actions against noobs") in several ways that I had no worries about in August.

I have characters that take significant advantage of people running the Sister's arc for my own gain. In addition to putting up lowball buy orders (which I have now been told via self petition is actionable, hilariously) I also have been known to do my share of can baiting.

But, the "no lying" part, I am considerably in greater violation for.

I have one corp spy (who remains undiscovered) posing as an alt of someone else. And I currently have one awox in the works whereby I am pretending to be a teenage Romanian girl(when I told them I was a girl, they just let me in, no API or anything). I have yet to get an answer as to whether lying about who you are in real life is against the new ToS also, sent in a ticket about the third day.

So yeah, I have used these tactics myself. And yes, I do see this as encroaching on the sandbox nature of the game. If you can't play the meta anymore, half the appeal of the game is gone. All this lying, paranoia, backstabbing, that the game was built on (that they have a flipping advertisement for) is suddenly within reach of being a prohibited activity.


So not only would the TOS changes effect your potential for making isk, it also in your opinion cripples one of the core elements and reasons to why people are driven to Eve Online. I couldn't agree more and thank you for your input.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#9 - 2013-09-18 07:17:23 UTC
Quote:
So not only would the TOS changes effect your potential for making isk, it also in your opinion cripples one of the core elements and reasons to why people are driven to Eve Online. I couldn't agree more and thank you for your input.


To be honest I really don't care about the money. Plenty of out it there, and I am not exactly hurting for income anymore, thanks to the wonders of knowing how the exploration game really works.

But I do object to the whole "something you do to everyone is actionable if a noob happens to blunder into it" philosophy they seem to be pushing.

Especially because it's so vague and open ended that it can only result in adjudication based on hurt feelings. And I personally maintain feelings are by definition not rational thoughts.

And as for the "no lying" clause... Yes. I feel it hamstrings player's espionage abilities, handcuffs any kind of scamming, and fundamentally shifts personal responsibility away from the individual player to make good decisions. It takes away the reasonable assumption of due diligence. And that, to be blunt, is just plain coddling the stupid, which is a complete 180 from the EVE I signed up for.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#10 - 2013-09-18 07:33:33 UTC
I thoughrouly enjoyed reading that. I myself have never done any real scamming, for some reason i have 'Morals' that guilt trip me out of it. I know its just a game, yet a cant seem to achieve freedom of them. However I love reading about Legendary scams that go on in EVE, it truly makes the game unique. Where in other games you would be perma banned, we are able to live in that grey area.

I've seen many a change since 2005 when i started playing. Not all of them have gone down with me all too well, From the introduction Super caps, to the removal of the drone bay from the Moros.... Yeah i have your number CCP! First you get rid of the 35 warrior II's of doom, then you just take it all away!

Anyway, this change of the TOS seems to be quite troubling. When will it stop? No pvp in Null sec? High sec? CONCORD in Wormhole space?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2013-09-18 11:16:36 UTC
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
I thoughrouly enjoyed reading that. I myself have never done any real scamming, for some reason i have 'Morals' that guilt trip me out of it. I know its just a game, yet a cant seem to achieve freedom of them. However I love reading about Legendary scams that go on in EVE, it truly makes the game unique. Where in other games you would be perma banned, we are able to live in that grey area.


Yeah, I'm kinda in the same boat, though my "morals" generally lead me to try scamming the scammer -- e.g. they've got a corp of rookies wage-slaving for them, I'll (try) getting the better guys (i.e. the ones who might last) out of that corp into a new crew so they actually get a chance to experience EVE for what it is.

Samoth Egnoled wrote:
I've seen many a change since 2005 when i started playing. Not all of them have gone down with me all too well, From the introduction Super caps, to the removal of the drone bay from the Moros.... Yeah i have your number CCP! First you get rid of the 35 warrior II's of doom, then you just take it all away!

Anyway, this change of the TOS seems to be quite troubling. When will it stop? No pvp in Null sec? High sec? CONCORD in Wormhole space?


Trouble is, CCP is listening to the loudest party (in this case, the whiners). Hell, they've even polluted the glorious title of carebearBear.

I started in '07, back when "carebear" was just the title for the players choosing to not get involved in combat as a profession ... though would take matters into their own hands if/when necessary... hell, I remember when flying with one of my first corps "graduating" from bait to tackler ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-09-18 14:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Shinhwa
I really liked your article. I'm a terrible scammer. I tried awoxing and although I got in some corps (one by claiming to be Canadian..as if) and killed some stuff, I didn't enjoy it. Ganking miners, selling permits, and generally being gallant in local is a blast. So I'm a fail scammer, but iI still will speak out for them because I know the next ToS change will come for me.

Eve PvE is bad. Really bad. I last played Guild Wars 3. It has fantastic PvE. Incredible environments and a very unique grouping system for quests. While I've been playing Eve for only 9 months, I really loved GW3 and played it for only 3 months. Its the sandbox that makes Eve great and totally unique among MMOs. Take that away and you'll have tournaments most playes will never get a chance to play in and you'll have Eve's PvE.

This is the first mmo I've played this long.I can't believe I have a 6mo training plan I'm working on. Some friends and I have loaded up a hauler with tower and fuel and are just waiting for the right wh to come a long. We will wait weeks if necessary. We plan on making isk and crushing our enemies. Not the red crosses, those are like cattle, but the ones who show up as little boxes and crack wise about our mammas.

Eve is great. May it ever be so because I think it has ruined me for all other mmos.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#13 - 2013-09-18 16:46:31 UTC
I'm Tara Read's alt can I have an invite and roles please?
Anne McDonald
Sandman are here
#14 - 2013-09-18 19:38:56 UTC
Thank you Tara fr a delightful read, I feel disconnected and I had not dug into the TOS changes (I just passed it off and not really took note of it) but your article does show we as a player base need to act, before it is to late. The underworld needs to vote with our feet, so come on people lets come from under our rocks and get out there!

In the worlds of the delightful Scottish...... FREEEEEDOOOOOOM!
Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-09-18 22:44:46 UTC
This thread is full of win. Just puttin' it out there.
Jake Patton
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-09-19 08:28:29 UTC
Lately, it seems like CCP has been suffering from a severe form of retardation.

In the past few weeks I've seen friends getting banned for contracting deadspace modules for a normal price, or receiving a -10bil wallet balance for accepting a random trade in Jita 4-4. What's worse is that GMs don't want to listen to reason anymore and they literally take weeks to respond to your petitions.

Just when you think it can't get any worse, you read about these TOS changes...

@OP: Great article!
Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-09-19 11:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Antony E Stark
My clicking finger is broken, please can you copy and paste your blog entries here?

Real Edit: Good article. I'm very tempted to cancel my subs and give the reason as "TOS Changes" and "Over zealous ban hammer swinging".