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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#781 - 2011-11-06 13:40:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Aoki Ayumi wrote:
Xoria Krint wrote:
This game has rules.
Morality has nothing to do with that. .


This


That appears to be saying that you have no choice. "I am here and this is how I must behave because it is the rules."
No it means that it's within the rules, so expect it to happen. This game is built around PvP, almost every aspect of it is PvP. Don't you think you should account for that fact when playing?

Jack Carrigan wrote:
This ****thread is still here? Really? The devs need to do the world a favor and just lock this one.

Apparently certain people can't differentiate fantasy from reality, and thus think all griefers are either delusional sociopaths, or quasi-autistic. Way to over-generalize.
Pretty much. They are also very quick to post personal insults, much like the hate mail in-game tbh.



And you still there ? Making things up? Interesting balance.

I would use your language.

Simple fact that you take posts personally is your problem not problem of the people who wrote them " in somewhat general sense"
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#782 - 2011-11-06 13:59:49 UTC
Quote:


I would use your language.

Simple fact that you take pvp ship losses personally is your problem not problem of the people who blew up your internet pixels



fixed your post
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#783 - 2011-11-06 14:09:41 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hi, my name is Herzog Wolfhammer and I, as an armchair psychologist, do not understand that sublimation and eustress are positive and healthy things for a human psyche.


Mah dog Herzog tellin' it like it is. Woop woop!

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#784 - 2011-11-06 14:16:35 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hi, my name is Herzog Wolfhammer and I, as an armchair psychologist, do not understand that sublimation and eustress are positive and healthy things for a human psyche.


Mah dog Herzog tellin' it like it is. Woop woop!


You forgot to add: he goes, and lives, by "SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!"

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#785 - 2011-11-06 15:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

And you still there ? Making things up? Interesting balance.

I would use your language.

Simple fact that you take posts personally is your problem not problem of the people who wrote them " in somewhat general sense"
Why shouldn't I be here, is there now a moratorium on certain types who can post in this thread?

Please point to where I made things up.

I don't take posts personally, I merely point out personal insults to show the ironic nature of the moral high ground crowd. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#786 - 2011-11-06 15:14:25 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

And you still there ? Making things up? Interesting balance.

I would use your language.

Simple fact that you take posts personally is your problem not problem of the people who wrote them " in somewhat general sense"
Why shouldn't I be here, is there now a moratorium on certain types who can post in this thread?

Please point to where I made things up.

I don't take posts personally, I merely point out personal insults to show the ironic nature of the moral high ground crowd. Blink


Word

:brofist:

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Aubepine Finfleur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#787 - 2011-11-06 15:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aubepine Finfleur
Torin Corax wrote:

I do not leave my morality at the door, as a gamer I simply adopt the morality of the game world into which I am immersing myself for a while. This principal holds true for every game I've ever played.
You ever bluff in poker? That's just attempting to trick someone. Not very nice to try and trick people out of real money surely? But that's the "morality" of the game. If you are going to play poker then you know this, and accept it.

Eve is a game set in a deliberately harsh universe, that is the "moral" baseline. Accept it and either enjoy the ride or move on. I enjoy the ride not because I like to hurt people, but because the constant risk associated with everything you do in Eve adds "spice". It's what makes otherwise mundane and boring activities tolerable. It also , to my mind at least, promotes teamwork in a way I've not experienced in any other game. There is nothing like the constant risk of sudden death to bind people together.



EvE is only hardcore and unforgiving if you try to play it in a civil manner. If you use all the tools at your disposal, it becomes fairly easymode, but also immersion-breaking. You merely have to activate multiple accounts to invalidate sec status mechanics, grief and scam to your heart's content with disposable or seemingly innocuous characters.

All the more proof that gank- and griefbears do not play the game as a means in itself, but only to make people mad over the internet. They don't care about immersion, since they use both positive and negative characters, disposable ones, and the relations between those characters make no sense whatsoever except in a metagaming context.


Nobody claims moral high ground, rather, every EvE player with common sense is disturbed by the fact there's no tool to get back at players playing this metagame, since chain of accounts are not assessed ingame. For example, the market alt of a gankbear semi-afk gatecamper (who waits for the gate activation signal while running missions on his positive sec status alt) should be recognized as such, and there should be a possibility to hide his market activity, so players who have a problem with him could boycott his trade.


Also, this minority of players, who enjoy taking a crap in the sandbox, should at least admit they only enjoy flinging excrement at other kids and see them rage. Their metagaming is EvE easymode, so pretending it's a cold and harsh universe players log in is blatantly wrong.

Remove Concord, make kill rights transferable, change gateguns mechanics (introduce tracking)
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#788 - 2011-11-06 15:44:52 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

And you still there ? Making things up? Interesting balance.

I would use your language.

Simple fact that you take posts personally is your problem not problem of the people who wrote them " in somewhat general sense"
Why shouldn't I be here, is there now a moratorium on certain types who can post in this thread?

Please point to where I made things up.

I don't take posts personally, I merely point out personal insults to show the ironic nature of the moral high ground crowd. Blink


Well i guess this thread could be locked about twenty pages ago ... Since no new "thoughts" gonna be said. The latter now is repeating those which has been said previously...

Well you accuse myself of insulting you, which i wasnt, or at least it wasnt my intention, i even re-read my post and still wasnt able to figure out where the insult is. But some people sees more to it...

As per moral high-ground... dont know about this.

Generally people which sees the abuse of suffering as bad pointing out that such behavior is indeed bad. I can agree with them, however such statement can be hardly taken as an insult.

As i stated before.
Gankers claims that they know who they are. I ve got no intention of proving them wrong, as i ve got no power to do so over the internet.

And those you labeled as the one with "moral high ground attitude"
Trying to prove that they are not what they think they are.

Everything in between is just playing with words, where one side obviously feel more entitled and giving more time and effort to their posts, when the other just stays locked in one statement : its just game / difference between game and life - without actually getting it any thought at all.

Living with close mind is full of joy and you is less likely you fail in "life". / you consider such as an insult . I consider it as an opposite.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#789 - 2011-11-06 15:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Stuff....
English may not be your first language. This could be the reason many of your posts are hard to understand and may come across in the wrong manner. It could be that when you called me shallow, you meant something else, who knows? Big smile

Oh and disagreeing with you, does not mean I have a closed mind. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#790 - 2011-11-07 02:08:18 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hi, my name is Herzog Wolfhammer and I, as an armchair psychologist, do not understand that sublimation and eustress are positive and healthy things for a human psyche.


Mah dog Herzog tellin' it like it is. Woop woop!


You forgot to add: he goes, and lives, by "SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!"



There's one now.


Get to the back of the short bus and sit down!

I am almost a generation older than the average EvE player so you best pay attention kids.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#791 - 2011-11-07 02:10:45 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


I am almost a generation older than the average EvE player so you best pay attention kids.





I doubt that.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#792 - 2011-11-07 02:21:06 UTC
Aubepine Finfleur wrote:


Nobody claims moral high ground,


I suggest you reread the OP.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#793 - 2011-11-07 03:01:25 UTC
Aubepine Finfleur wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:

I do not leave my morality at the door, as a gamer I simply adopt the morality of the game world into which I am immersing myself for a while. This principal holds true for every game I've ever played.
You ever bluff in poker? That's just attempting to trick someone. Not very nice to try and trick people out of real money surely? But that's the "morality" of the game. If you are going to play poker then you know this, and accept it.

Eve is a game set in a deliberately harsh universe, that is the "moral" baseline. Accept it and either enjoy the ride or move on. I enjoy the ride not because I like to hurt people, but because the constant risk associated with everything you do in Eve adds "spice". It's what makes otherwise mundane and boring activities tolerable. It also , to my mind at least, promotes teamwork in a way I've not experienced in any other game. There is nothing like the constant risk of sudden death to bind people together.



EvE is only hardcore and unforgiving if you try to play it in a civil manner. If you use all the tools at your disposal, it becomes fairly easymode, but also immersion-breaking. You merely have to activate multiple accounts to invalidate sec status mechanics, grief and scam to your heart's content with disposable or seemingly innocuous characters.

All the more proof that gank- and griefbears do not play the game as a means in itself, but only to make people mad over the internet. They don't care about immersion, since they use both positive and negative characters, disposable ones, and the relations between those characters make no sense whatsoever except in a metagaming context.


Nobody claims moral high ground, rather, every EvE player with common sense is disturbed by the fact there's no tool to get back at players playing this metagame, since chain of accounts are not assessed ingame. For example, the market alt of a gankbear semi-afk gatecamper (who waits for the gate activation signal while running missions on his positive sec status alt) should be recognized as such, and there should be a possibility to hide his market activity, so players who have a problem with him could boycott his trade.


Also, this minority of players, who enjoy taking a crap in the sandbox, should at least admit they only enjoy flinging excrement at other kids and see them rage. Their metagaming is EvE easymode, so pretending it's a cold and harsh universe players log in is blatantly wrong.

Very well said.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#794 - 2011-11-07 03:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
I keep wondering why all the fear in this thread. Why won't griefers admit it here as much as they admit it in their blogs, forums and actions (actions such as posting a youtube of begotten tears)?

There's an old saying "Evil flee where none pursueth". They will say it's what the game is for, it's in the rules, it's in the mechanics of the game, CCP condones it, but they flee from telling the truth.

As to doubts about my age, I remember "Land of the Lost", first series, when it first aired, and was old enough to understand it.

Having seen enough RL griefing going on, I suppose the reply from game griefers in asking for truth about their actions is too much to expect.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#795 - 2011-11-07 03:29:57 UTC
Alot of us remember Ultra-man too, but we don't act all superior because of it. And as far as real life griefing goes, I too am a product of the big green machine and have the scares to prove it, six years worth.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#796 - 2011-11-07 03:32:14 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I keep wondering why all the fear in this thread. Why won't griefers admit it here as much as they admit it in their blogs, forums and actions (actions such as posting a youtube of begotten tears)?

What fear?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#797 - 2011-11-07 05:09:32 UTC
Aubepine Finfleur wrote:

EvE is only hardcore and unforgiving if you try to play it in a civil manner. If you use all the tools at your disposal, it becomes fairly easymode, but also immersion-breaking. You merely have to activate multiple accounts to invalidate sec status mechanics, grief and scam to your heart's content with disposable or seemingly innocuous characters.

All the more proof that gank- and griefbears do not play the game as a means in itself, but only to make people mad over the internet. They don't care about immersion, since they use both positive and negative characters, disposable ones, and the relations between those characters make no sense whatsoever except in a metagaming context.


Nobody claims moral high ground, rather, every EvE player with common sense is disturbed by the fact there's no tool to get back at players playing this metagame, since chain of accounts are not assessed ingame. For example, the market alt of a gankbear semi-afk gatecamper (who waits for the gate activation signal while running missions on his positive sec status alt) should be recognized as such, and there should be a possibility to hide his market activity, so players who have a problem with him could boycott his trade.


Also, this minority of players, who enjoy taking a crap in the sandbox, should at least admit they only enjoy flinging excrement at other kids and see them rage. Their metagaming is EvE easymode, so pretending it's a cold and harsh universe players log in is blatantly wrong.


I agree.

There is too many attacks motivated by kill boards and just to upset other players, picking on them.
I understand the ones done for loot but there isn't much left after a mining barge pops

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#798 - 2011-11-07 05:15:49 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
There is too many attacks motivated by kill boards and just to upset other players, picking on them.
I understand the ones done for loot but there isn't much left after a mining barge pops

Who has better morals...the person shooting a defenseless rock or the person who kills the miner and protects the rock?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#799 - 2011-11-07 05:20:14 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?


Let me ask you, when you play Monopoly with your family, do you give them all a break when they land on your Boardwalk with 2 hotels? Wheres your morality? You're jacking up prices on your properties and robbing them of all their monopoly money. You're immoral!

How is ganking people in a videogame even considered immoral anyways? its space play money and you joined the game knowing that people can blow you up anywhere. its not real! and if you argue that people put real dollars into it via gtc's, thats their own stupidity. Again, they knew what kind of game this is.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#800 - 2011-11-07 05:26:00 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
There is too many attacks motivated by kill boards and just to upset other players, picking on them.
I understand the ones done for loot but there isn't much left after a mining barge pops

Who has better morals...the person shooting a defenseless rock or the person who kills the miner and protects the rock?


You jest, but that about nicely summs it. Moral Relativity is the doom of the human-kind / just saying.

If you put value on life 0 / since value itself is based only in an ideology. And everything else got about the same value than we are screwed.