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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#761 - 2011-11-05 18:02:49 UTC
I so guess, from my perspective atleast, its not really a question of morality in game, so much if you percieve yourself a victim or not. Me, not so much. Neither a bully nor a victim. Just an average capsuleer trying to make his way in this uncaring and unforgiving universe we call New Eden.

As for the post about burning dogs and torturing animals: Even as a disabled Marine, I would end up in prison if I stumbled upon something like that. I don't care how many were in their "group".

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#762 - 2011-11-05 18:32:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Riedle wrote:

Quote:
What is the point in a post like that? I would go to the zoo if I want to hear meaningless noises. Roll


Yes, I often find when people are unable to match wits with someone they tend to personally attack them instead.
Kind of how Bullies behave. Well, bullies with low IQ.

:)


... and yet you do the same. Roll


I'm not the one claiming the moral high ground lol
Aubepine Finfleur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#763 - 2011-11-05 18:47:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Mortis vonShadow wrote:

Agreed it would take a lot of time to organize and execute. Are you going somewhere? Are you quiting EVE anytime soon? Time is on your side. Don't make the mistake alot of newer and some older players make, EVE is not an instant gratification game. Research your target, come up with a plan, practice the plan, then execute same. Plus, anything worthwhile in EVE will never come easy. You know that.


You can hit an alliance or corp into breaking up or closing down but more are springing up all the time. Those people just move to other corps, you can even end up distilling them. Then they can always just swop over to an alt until the heat dies down.
There are no real consequences for them, which is why they love this game so much.


That's the biggest problem in this game. There is no chain of accounts related consequences for whatever you do in New Eden, good or bad.
For example, what happens in juicy missions hubs, is: gankbears gatecamp and dockcamp the system, preventing mission running for others, while running missions themselves with secondary accounts and characters who have positive sec status and good standings. So busting their camps has really no effect. They just wait for the vigilantes to leave, while keeping on amassing LPs with their mission running alts. And the market value of those LPs is high, because they blockade the most fruitful mission hubs.
They will also use +sec status characters to probe missionners out, bm the acceleration gate and then log back in on their gankbears ones -who were logged off so as to make mission runners feel safe-.
The best one can do in such situations is have a secondary account too, and sit a fast locking ship at the acceleration gate to pop the incoming prober. But that prober will have a +sec status, so your alt will take a hit !

See how complicated, metagamey and completely stupid this all is? Alts are an abomination, but the pathetic metagame they create could be much lessened if only some form of sec status or standings was linked to a string of related accounts. And relating accounts together would not be very hard, even when the devious gankbear would seek to compartimentalize his New Eden experience.


tldr; The only problem most people have with gankbearing is that there's no way to get back at those people and hit their wallet.

Remove Concord, make kill rights transferable, change gateguns mechanics (introduce tracking)
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#764 - 2011-11-05 18:52:17 UTC
Agreed, it's all just the result of the poorly designed game mechanisms that actually promote the corruption of morality.

E.g. CONCORD... sec status... navy police... insurance... etc
Aoki Ayumi
project HAVEN
#765 - 2011-11-05 19:45:33 UTC
Xoria Krint wrote:
This game has rules. Traveling to low security space is the same thing as agreeing to Player vs Player combat (It's game mechanics). Morality has nothing to do with that. Often when players are getting killed in low-security space they are doing something wrong (like not using directional scanning, and watching local for new pilots). As a PvPer you can sometimes kill the same newbie a few times and after some while he learns and actually warps out before I get there. Who knows, one day he might be able to actually defend himself.


This
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#766 - 2011-11-05 20:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Back in the 70s and 80s there would be an occasional news blurb about small groups of teenagers who got caught setting dogs on fire, killing livestock, torturing cats, and such other sick shenanigans. I recall one case from upstate New York in the 80s where the group finally killed somebody. There was even a book about it, where in one chapter of of them describes how they burned a poodle to death in an old washing machine and marvelled at how the screaming almost sounded human.




"If lobsters looked like puppies, people could never drop them in boiling water while they're still alive. But instead, they look like science fiction monsters so it's okay."---George Carlin.
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#767 - 2011-11-05 20:44:56 UTC
It's absolutely ridiculous how people make these connections between violent / cruel videogames and real life crime / psychopathy. Even talking about boiling or burning animals and killing people on a internet spaceship forum is pretty ******* dumb.

People act like assholes in eve BECAUSE it's a game. They wouldnt do it in real life. Most people who do evil things in eve are normal, moral people and they're not training themselves to become murderers by playing. There are those in real life who play video games and kill people, yes. But they're not killing people because they played video games, they're killing people because they're ****** up in the head and that has nothing to do with gaming.

This thread is stupid.
Aubepine Finfleur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#768 - 2011-11-05 21:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aubepine Finfleur
Bischopt wrote:
It's absolutely ridiculous how people make these connections between violent / cruel videogames and real life crime / psychopathy. Even talking about boiling or burning animals and killing people on a internet spaceship forum is pretty ******* dumb.

People act like assholes in eve BECAUSE it's a game. They wouldnt do it in real life. Most people who do evil things in eve are normal, moral people and they're not training themselves to become murderers by playing. There are those in real life who play video games and kill people, yes. But they're not killing people because they played video games, they're killing people because they're ****** up in the head and that has nothing to do with gaming.

This thread is stupid.


But you are even more, this point has been addressed before. There are two categories of people logging in EvE

- Those who enjoy it as a game, roleplay a capsuleer, and are out to amass virtual riches and internet spaceships. The game is an end in itself
- Those who don't care about virtual riches and internet spaceships, but only enjoy gamer's rage, hate mail, carebear tears etc. The game is a mere social platform to get cheap kicks out of complete strangers and delight in their distress. They wouldn't do it IRL because they are a cowardly bunch. Though, Herzog wrote earlier that online sociopathy may prevent RL acts of vandalism or worse, and I hope that he's right, that a broken New Eden helps prevent RL troubles.
And no, the gankbears are not normal or moral people. Their "ingame" goals and chatlogs amply demonstrate how quasi-autistic, selfish and completely devoid of empathy they are. We shun or isolate those people IRL, why should we suffer them online?

And you see, the broken New Eden environmnent (hamfisted Concord response, gateguns forcing blobby camps) is a direct consequence of this minority of online sociopaths, who do not enjoy playing a game, but enjoy other people's distress.


Boy oh boy do i enjoy rewording the same exact thing a hundred times, for people who cannot spend 10 minutes speed reading a thread to extract salient points !

Now, people who do not want to play an online game as an end in itself, but only abuse those who do, should they be allowed to log in at all ?

Remove Concord, make kill rights transferable, change gateguns mechanics (introduce tracking)
Venus Vermillion
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#769 - 2011-11-05 21:40:09 UTC
This thread makes about as much sense as Jack Thompson.
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#770 - 2011-11-05 21:41:18 UTC
Bischopt wrote:
It's absolutely ridiculous how people make these connections between violent / cruel videogames and real life crime / psychopathy. Even talking about boiling or burning animals and killing people on a internet spaceship forum is pretty ******* dumb.

People act like assholes in eve BECAUSE it's a game. They wouldnt do it in real life. Most people who do evil things in eve are normal, moral people and they're not training themselves to become murderers by playing. There are those in real life who play video games and kill people, yes. But they're not killing people because they played video games, they're killing people because they're ****** up in the head and that has nothing to do with gaming.



Read the entire thread, we're all in agreement that what happens in game isn't how someone outside the game is going to act. We've moved beyond that now. Now, its just a general discussion of right and wrong and how it play within society. Yeah, some are still hanging onto the ingame/out-of-game, but thats because they like the threadnaught. But for the most part its a discussion of moral impacts gaming has on society as a whole.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Qansh
Triskelion Ouroboros
#771 - 2011-11-05 22:06:34 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Look the problem there is it is not your game , my game or OUR game , it is ccp's game.They make the rules and set the boundries and anything wich falls under those rules/boundries is THE GAME.

Well, I think there's different ways to use the term 'game'. It's CCPs game because they're the ones who sell it and set it up, sure. But EVE itself is a lot of mini-games and a whole lot of choice. It should be perfectly obvious to anyone that just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done (and I'm not even talking about objective morality), especially if it falls in the category of the player himself deciding what the aim is. Chess doesn't tell one where to move; it only tells one how he can move. The game itself is the players deciding where to move. The goal in chess is Checkmate. The goal is EVE is... whatever one wants it to be within the realm of possibility (and with weapons to back it up hopefully).

All I'm trying to do is get away from the idea of people not admitting to the game that THEY choose to play. So, a person has weapons; what is he going to do with them? It's open-ended. In any event, the problem isn't in attacking "innocent" pilots; it's in the attacker believing that it's a forced role and that anybody else is an idiot who hasn't been forced into that role (which is an assumption in any event). The result is that he makes it personal ("You're an idiot")* while relying on an assumed 'out'.

So, is this really a problem? Not in the game — unless you're a stickler for motivations. But it does matter in conversation. (Finding ways to effect better security is a separate question).

Quote:
As i said i am a trader , i have fallen for scams , have been suicided , ganked, griefed , and called what not in local chat however disliking that if i may at times i do know and accept this is part of ccp's game.Anything wich crosses the line will be reported and hopefully thiswillbedealtwith but the rest is and SHOULD be part of the game.It is what gives it it's charm.

Yeah, sorry about coming across like I was attacking you and how you play or something. I was just going off of the original statement that I quoted and got a little more heated than necessary. As far as EVE having it's own particular charm, I'm all for it. EVE shouldn't be anything other than what it truly reflects in terms of people's choices. "EVE is Real" and I think that's awesome.

* Troll bait! Smile
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#772 - 2011-11-05 22:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bischopt
Aubepine Finfleur wrote:
Bischopt wrote:
It's absolutely ridiculous how people make these connections between violent / cruel videogames and real life crime / psychopathy. Even talking about boiling or burning animals and killing people on a internet spaceship forum is pretty ******* dumb.

People act like assholes in eve BECAUSE it's a game. They wouldnt do it in real life. Most people who do evil things in eve are normal, moral people and they're not training themselves to become murderers by playing. There are those in real life who play video games and kill people, yes. But they're not killing people because they played video games, they're killing people because they're ****** up in the head and that has nothing to do with gaming.

This thread is stupid.


But you are even more, this point has been addressed before. There are two categories of people logging in EvE

- Those who enjoy it as a game, roleplay a capsuleer, and are out to amass virtual riches and internet spaceships. The game is an end in itself
- Those who don't care about virtual riches and internet spaceships, but only enjoy gamer's rage, hate mail, carebear tears etc. The game is a mere social platform to get cheap kicks out of complete strangers and delight in their distress. They wouldn't do it IRL because they are a cowardly bunch. Though, Herzog wrote earlier that online sociopathy may prevent RL acts of vandalism or worse, and I hope that he's right, that a broken New Eden helps prevent RL troubles.
And no, the gankbears are not normal or moral people. Their "ingame" goals and chatlogs amply demonstrate how quasi-autistic, selfish and completely devoid of empathy they are. We shun or isolate those people IRL, why should we suffer them online?

And you see, the broken New Eden environmnent (hamfisted Concord response, gateguns forcing blobby camps) is a direct consequence of this minority of online sociopaths, who do not enjoy playing a game, but enjoy other people's distress.


Boy oh boy do i enjoy rewording the same exact thing a hundred times, for people who cannot spend 10 minutes speed reading a thread to extract salient points !

Now, people who do not want to play an online game as an end in itself, but only abuse those who do, should they be allowed to log in at all ?


Gaming is very very popular hobby and there are far worse games than eve online out there. If you really think that all these trolls and griefers are playing only because they want to cause other people harm and they do not enjoy the game itself you're the one with a problem.

Sure you can produce the same text over and over again but that doesnt make what you're saying correct. These "online psychopaths" who only play to hurt others exist only in your own mind. You're just stating your own twisted opinion as the truth and assuming people are the way IRL they are in EVE / other online games.

Quote:
They wouldn't do it IRL because they are a cowardly bunch. Though, Herzog wrote earlier that online sociopathy may prevent RL acts of vandalism or worse, and I hope that he's right, that a broken New Eden helps prevent RL troubles.
And no, the gankbears are not normal or moral people. Their "ingame" goals and chatlogs amply demonstrate how quasi-autistic, selfish and completely devoid of empathy they are. We shun or isolate those people IRL, why should we suffer them online?


What, seriously? I'm actually offended by this. I do enjoy killing the random unsuspecting miner in lowsec when they're not watching their back and I enjoy a little aggression IN GAME but I would never ever attack or hurt a random person IRL because I would feel bad about myself and I would feel I've done something horribly wrong.
Yes, I will kill someone weaker IN GAME only because I can and have the opportunity.
No, I wont even touch someone weaker than me in an aggressive or violent manner IRL only because I can and have the opportunity. And this has nothing to do with me being or not being a coward. It doesnt even have anything to do with the law, I wont do it because I feel it's wrong.

Lastly, I wont mention any names to keep these people out of harms way, but I know people ingame who enjoy trolling and ganking and I know how they appear to those people who become their victims. However, I can tell you that they are very intelligent, educated and moral people who care for their friends. One of my favorite eve-people who enjoys this kind of activities teaches at a university. Also I can tell you that these people enjoy the game itself as much as everyone else. They just happen to enjoy the darker side of the game as well.

tl;dr
Stop categorizing and judging people left and right. It's not them who are immoral, it's you who fails to grasp the idea of the sandbox and who's making assumptions that cannot be proven.

@ Mortis
No, I wont read 40 pages of this kind of babble and I apologize for the massive inconvenience it has caused. I probably wont read the next 40 pages of this babble either.
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#773 - 2011-11-05 23:45:22 UTC
Bischopt wrote:


@ Mortis
No, I wont read 40 pages of this kind of babble and I apologize for the massive inconvenience it has caused. I probably wont read the next 40 pages of this babble either.



Thats okay, you already stated what the other 40 pages have already stated. Its no longer a thread of whats moral in-game/out-of-game. Now its just about morality itself and what that means to everyone who plays games.

o7

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Aubepine Finfleur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2011-11-06 00:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aubepine Finfleur
Bischopt wrote:

Gaming is very very popular hobby and there are far worse games than eve online out there. If you really think that all these trolls and griefers are playing only because they want to cause other people harm and they do not enjoy the game itself you're the one with a problem.

Sure you can produce the same text over and over again but that doesnt make what you're saying correct. These "online psychopaths" who only play to hurt others exist only in your own mind. You're just stating your own twisted opinion as the truth and assuming people are the way IRL they are in EVE / other online games.

What, seriously? I'm actually offended by this. I do enjoy killing the random unsuspecting miner in lowsec when they're not watching their back and I enjoy a little aggression IN GAME but I would never ever attack or hurt a random person IRL because I would feel bad about myself and I would feel I've done something horribly wrong.
Yes, I will kill someone weaker IN GAME only because I can and have the opportunity.
No, I wont even touch someone weaker than me in an aggressive or violent manner IRL only because I can and have the opportunity. And this has nothing to do with me being or not being a coward. It doesnt even have anything to do with the law, I wont do it because I feel it's wrong.

Lastly, I wont mention any names to keep these people out of harms way, but I know people ingame who enjoy trolling and ganking and I know how they appear to those people who become their victims. However, I can tell you that they are very intelligent, educated and moral people who care for their friends. One of my favorite eve-people who enjoys this kind of activities teaches at a university. Also I can tell you that these people enjoy the game itself as much as everyone else. They just happen to enjoy the darker side of the game as well.

tl;dr
Stop categorizing and judging people left and right. It's not them who are immoral, it's you who fails to grasp the idea of the sandbox and who's making assumptions that cannot be proven.


EvE is a game where loss hurts, so it's a griefer's paradise. Such is widely acknowledged, even by kids on 4chan. The griefer's mindset is that of someone who enjoy causing displeasure in others more than he enjoys the actual gameplay (hence their love for exploits and broken mechanics), but won't do it IRL for fear of consequences.
Podding the occasional miner in lowsec is not exactly griefplay. However, non-territorial interdiction gatecamp, dockcamp, lofty tricks, certain scams and corp infiltrations, those are, since the isk is not really what they are after, but mostly rage and hate mails.

Don't you think that Richard Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld are brilliant people? You can be intelligent, educated, care for your friends and still be a douchebag, or a psychopath. Maybe it's great that those people you know can express their sadism in-game, instead of RL !

Let's talk about sandboxes. When a child takes a crap in a sandbox to annoy other kids, what do people do? do they just shrug and say "well it's his way of expressing himself" ?
The sandbox that is New Eden is divided in three zones
- In one, kids sometimes take a crap, then get punched in the face by authorities. Or, they hide it in the sand (accepted griefplay).
- In another one, kids endlessly fling excrement at one another
- In the third one, kids build castles and destroy them

I for one resent the fact that kids who enjoy the fecal matter that is griefplay are nigh impossible to counter (i.e. hurt their wallet, or their general accounts-related wealth/reputation if they use alts). There are no real ways to make them stop smearing excrement in the sand, and it's more than a bit sad.

Remove Concord, make kill rights transferable, change gateguns mechanics (introduce tracking)
flakeys
Doomheim
#775 - 2011-11-06 07:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
flakeys wrote:
... it is ccp's game.They make the rules and set the boundries and anything wich falls under those rules/boundries is THE GAME.
... but the rest is and SHOULD be part of the game.It is what gives it it's charm.


Simply because you CAN do something does NOT mean that you SHOULD do it.



Wich is why is i pointed out am not one of those who does these things.However as also said if you CAN do it then you should EXPECT others to do it.They are free to play it the way they feel within the boundries of the game just as much as i am free to play my way.

Also you say so many want to be a bully in eve , well in my experience i came across a crapload more people who just play the game nicely then people who like to bully.Highsec should so obviously be the example of this.How many people we have running missions daily or mining or manufacturing and just minding there own thing and how many we got who are highsec griefers?You can't disagree on that one , the majority of eve players play 'the good guy' but the small amount of griefers/scammers just stands out more.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#776 - 2011-11-06 10:30:13 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly me I think...) but please read trough. This is a troll attempt, this is an attempt to generate discussion.

The question I want to ask you is this: Sure, one likes god (aka the lead dev of life ) go around saying **** like It's so easy to be an ******* to people. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if the balls to just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.




Cool story Bro.

Also, fixed.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#777 - 2011-11-06 11:32:38 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
No one "leaves their morality at the door." You are moral or you are not. If you enjoy inflicting distress on others in a game you no doubt enjoy it in RL as well.



I can only assume your post was an attempt at trolling.?
I do not leave my morality at the door, as a gamer I simply adopt the morality of the game world into which I am immersing myself for a while. This principal holds true for every game I've ever played.
You ever bluff in poker? That's just attempting to trick someone. Not very nice to try and trick people out of real money surely? But that's the "morality" of the game. If you are going to play poker then you know this, and accept it.

Eve is a game set in a deliberately harsh universe, that is the "moral" baseline. Accept it and either enjoy the ride or move on. I enjoy the ride not because I like to hurt people, but because the constant risk associated with everything you do in Eve adds "spice". It's what makes otherwise mundane and boring activities tolerable. It also , to my mind at least, promotes teamwork in a way I've not experienced in any other game. There is nothing like the constant risk of sudden death to bind people together.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#778 - 2011-11-06 12:16:23 UTC
This ****thread is still here? Really? The devs need to do the world a favor and just lock this one.

Apparently certain people can't differentiate fantasy from reality, and thus think all griefers are either delusional sociopaths, or quasi-autistic. Way to over-generalize.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Jenshae Chiroptera
#779 - 2011-11-06 12:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Aoki Ayumi wrote:
Xoria Krint wrote:
This game has rules.
Morality has nothing to do with that. .


This


That appears to be saying that you have no choice. "I am here and this is how I must behave because it is the rules."

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#780 - 2011-11-06 13:19:05 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Aoki Ayumi wrote:
Xoria Krint wrote:
This game has rules.
Morality has nothing to do with that. .


This


That appears to be saying that you have no choice. "I am here and this is how I must behave because it is the rules."
No it means that it's within the rules, so expect it to happen. This game is built around PvP, almost every aspect of it is PvP. Don't you think you should account for that fact when playing?

Jack Carrigan wrote:
This ****thread is still here? Really? The devs need to do the world a favor and just lock this one.

Apparently certain people can't differentiate fantasy from reality, and thus think all griefers are either delusional sociopaths, or quasi-autistic. Way to over-generalize.
Pretty much. They are also very quick to post personal insults, much like the hate mail in-game tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.