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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2011-11-02 13:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:

I at no point implied that morals and principles are not important. What I did state, was that Humans are animals, which is a commonly known fact, and that Humans are subconsciously influenced by ancestral drives implanted by evolution. My point, which you acknowledged earlier as legitimate from the viewpoint I was taking, is that it is rather logical to assume that there is a natural drive to take joy in dominance behavior. In current western society, it is seen as slightly barbaric. It is therefore suppressed by many members of Western society. However, in other cultures, such as that of the Mongols, one of whom I quoted earlier, it was an accepted part of society. In said cultures, this natural drive was perfectly acceptable to follow under certain circumstances.

However, in the application of this to a game like EVE, where there is no society, and therefore no societal unspoken law, there is no reason to suppress such primal drives. Which is why some do not. Those that do not, probably excel in compartmentalization, while those that choose to bring their societal moral compass onto a playing field where it does not apply, are most likely less adept at making such distinctions.


You keep stating that humans are like animals and our instincts are ancestral remnants, but I can't think of any animal that tortures and kills for the sake of enjoying the suffering of another animal. So I'm failing to see how this even relates to the human enjoyment of someone's suffering.


Mammalian predators engage in what we might as well call "cruelty" increasingly with intelligence. Cats play with mice they have caught. Killer whales will enjoy flinging a live seal pup about, catching it, dunking it, tossing it to another whale, until it dies. They will also engage in behaviour like harrassing a whale and her calf until they can eventually drown the calf, then, after eating a token amount of it, leaving it to sink and rot.

Chimpanzees have been observed engaging in premeditated infanticide, bullying, **** and murder (unprovoked violence against a member of their community). They also actively enjoy hunting monkeys (the food value of the prey is far less than the energy expended catching it)

To name but a few examples.


For your examples above, their intentions aren't to make their prey suffer for the sake of making them suffer, so they are irrelevant.

No animal, to my knowledge, tortures for the sake of enjoyment through the suffering of another animal (collecting tears). They do it out of necessity or simply because they find the play or chase entertaining. They don't care whether their victim is crying or suffering. When I was young eons ago I owned a cat that used to "torture" lizards and mice. And even though it did it because it found the chase playful and challenging, it did not do it to watch the animal suffer and gain satisfaction from its suffering. Hell, I could substitute the victim for a yarn and it would have just as much fun. This enjoyment of suffering that some derive is a quality (and I'm using this term loosely) attributed to humans only.

Maybe if your argument was "I don't care if they're suffering or not" then, you'd still have issues, but at least your argument would have some merit. But what goes on here on these forums is make people suffer to gain satisfaction out of the suffering itself. That is the product being collected for amusement.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#502 - 2011-11-02 13:56:50 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:

I at no point implied that morals and principles are not important. What I did state, was that Humans are animals, which is a commonly known fact, and that Humans are subconsciously influenced by ancestral drives implanted by evolution. My point, which you acknowledged earlier as legitimate from the viewpoint I was taking, is that it is rather logical to assume that there is a natural drive to take joy in dominance behavior. In current western society, it is seen as slightly barbaric. It is therefore suppressed by many members of Western society. However, in other cultures, such as that of the Mongols, one of whom I quoted earlier, it was an accepted part of society. In said cultures, this natural drive was perfectly acceptable to follow under certain circumstances.

However, in the application of this to a game like EVE, where there is no society, and therefore no societal unspoken law, there is no reason to suppress such primal drives. Which is why some do not. Those that do not, probably excel in compartmentalization, while those that choose to bring their societal moral compass onto a playing field where it does not apply, are most likely less adept at making such distinctions.


You keep stating that humans are like animals and our instincts are ancestral remnants, but I can't think of any animal that tortures and kills for the sake of enjoying the suffering of another animal. So I'm failing to see how this even relates to the human enjoyment of someone's suffering.


Mammalian predators engage in what we might as well call "cruelty" increasingly with intelligence. Cats play with mice they have caught. Killer whales will enjoy flinging a live seal pup about, catching it, dunking it, tossing it to another whale, until it dies. They will also engage in behaviour like harrassing a whale and her calf until they can eventually drown the calf, then, after eating a token amount of it, leaving it to sink and rot.

Chimpanzees have been observed engaging in premeditated infanticide, bullying, **** and murder (unprovoked violence against a member of their community). They also actively enjoy hunting monkeys (the food value of the prey is far less than the energy expended catching it)

To name but a few examples.


For your examples above, their intentions aren't to make their prey suffer for the sake of making them suffer,.


How do you know?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#503 - 2011-11-02 13:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Malcanis wrote:
How do you know?

How do you know they're in it for the tears? Your examples above certainly don't prove it. So where's your proof that animals enjoy collecting tears?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#504 - 2011-11-02 14:08:14 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
How do you know?

How do you know they're in it for the tears? Your examples above certainly don't prove it. So where's your proof that animals enjoy collecting tears?


When you see a creature clearly being slowly tormented to death for little or no obvious purpose, I don't think that burden of proof is on the diagnosis of cruelty.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2011-11-02 14:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
How do you know?

How do you know they're in it for the tears? Your examples above certainly don't prove it. So where's your proof that animals enjoy collecting tears?


When you see a creature clearly being slowly tormented to death for little or no obvious purpose, I don't think that burden of proof is on the diagnosis of cruelty.


Again, you are not proving they enjoy hurting their victims' feelings and causing them misery. Although most animals hunt their prey for food exclusively I concede that some play with it as I myself stated above. But you are implying that they play to enjoy the animal's suffering and feelings of pain which you have STILL not proven. Your only contention is that they kill the prey slowly. That is not proof.

And out of curiosity, what animal is it that you're thinking of? Because the examples you gave above either just prove they do it for food and/or simple entertainment without linking to the intentional extraction of tears from their prey.

What animal is it you speak of that gets enjoyment from watching its victims suffer so I may do some research on this? Besides humans, of course :).

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Vardec Crom
The Harpooner's Rest
#506 - 2011-11-02 14:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vardec Crom
Huehuehue wrote:
That is because every player plays for fun, and the game is no fun if there's no risk of death.



hey look you answered your own question. you're of the mind that ccp made hi-sec so it's 'safe'. wrong, they even say so themselves.


you agree to pvp when you login to the game, simple as that.


hi-sec pubbies shitting up the forums with morality why i never
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#507 - 2011-11-02 14:43:34 UTC
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:
As all humans are animals, they are driven by animal reflexes at their core (Humans do give into their basic instincts much more than some animals, as much as we like to feel we do not.) . It is therefore foolish to argue that humans are unaffected by the drive of their ancestors.

You may not be able to leave it alone because you are driven by your urges, but that doesn't make the rest of us chronic self abusers.

I hope that when you are no longer a teenager you will have the discipline and insight to develop into something more than just animal instinct.

You have my pity in the meantime.

Good day, sir.


Confirming I am a chronic self abuser. Especially when I was in my teens
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#508 - 2011-11-02 14:43:59 UTC
ye gods,

what is it, like 4 of you keeping this craptastic thread alive so you can poke each other with your razor sharp wits?

GET A ******* ROOM!
Vardec Crom
The Harpooner's Rest
#509 - 2011-11-02 14:45:23 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


For your examples above, their intentions aren't to make their prey suffer for the sake of making them suffer, so they are irrelevant.

No animal, to my knowledge, tortures for the sake of enjoyment through the suffering of another animal (collecting tears). They do it out of necessity or simply because they find the play or chase entertaining.


cant tell if trolling or just ********.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#510 - 2011-11-02 14:45:25 UTC
Handsome Hussein wrote:
You're playing a game where anything you fly can be destroyed and you are complaining and judging people specifically because they are destroying those things. You really need to be playing another game.

I buy a PLEX every so often and also pay a subscription. I don't have a lot of time to grind and I don't make a lot of money. OTOH, I don't take it hard if I lose a ship, or multiple ships. If I ran out of ships on both accounts, I would buy another PLEX or tough it out in a n00b ship until I could afford a frigate. This is all part of the game.

As for why I left my morality at the door? I'll make it simple: Because I can. And I'm a ******* saint compared to most of the people who play according to your terms of morality.



Are you nuts? I wouldn't quit eve unless CCP screws the game up. Why do you think the game can be so compelling? Because it's full of sociopaths. I can judge the players all I want, but it definitely doesn't detract from the game itself. Real live foes are always gonna trump AI ones.

You are correct that it's all part of the game. This does not preclude me from seeing sadist types for what they are. You can be as much of a **** as you choose to be, it's your call, but don't expect me to be one just because I can be. I'm not gonna treat people like crap just because I can hide behind my avatar like a coward.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2011-11-02 14:58:55 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

Again, you are not proving they enjoy hurting their victims' feelings and causing them misery.


you're dumb hopefully an orca drowns you

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#512 - 2011-11-02 14:59:17 UTC
you know, you haven't proven people enjoy suffering either

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2011-11-02 15:01:54 UTC
Vardec Crom wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


For your examples above, their intentions aren't to make their prey suffer for the sake of making them suffer, so they are irrelevant.

No animal, to my knowledge, tortures for the sake of enjoyment through the suffering of another animal (collecting tears). They do it out of necessity or simply because they find the play or chase entertaining.


cant tell if trolling or just ********.


I'll clear it up a bit. An animal can certainly play and even torture. I am not arguing this. I am arguing the intentions on why they do it.

A cat may play with a mouse; catch, release, catch again, for example, until the unfortunate mouse tires and dies. There is no doubt the mouse has been put through agonizing pain. The question here is is the cat enjoying the mouse's suffering and feelings of pain? Is it doing it because the chase is a challenge without regards to the mouse's feelings? There is a difference in not caring and caring (as in caring that your victim suffers pain).

If your contention is that you enjoy the suffering of other humans because it's a trait that has been passed on by animals then you may agree that the cat is (1) taking into account the mouse's feelings and (2) gaining satisfaction from knowing the mouse is in excrutiating pain and that is making its play more enjoyable. But my question is can you prove that the cat is indeed recognizing the mouse's feelings AND enjoying from knowing the mouse is suffering?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2011-11-02 15:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Weaselior wrote:
you know, you haven't proven people enjoy suffering either


You mean like besides people admitting they enjoy making others suffer?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#515 - 2011-11-02 15:06:23 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
you know, you haven't proven people enjoy suffering either


You mean like besides this thread where people have admitted they enjoy making others suffer?

thats not proof

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#516 - 2011-11-02 15:06:34 UTC
by your moronic standards

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#517 - 2011-11-02 15:06:54 UTC
maybe they're lying to troll you, the worlds biggest moron who should be drowned by an orca

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2011-11-02 15:28:04 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Vardec Crom wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


For your examples above, their intentions aren't to make their prey suffer for the sake of making them suffer, so they are irrelevant.

No animal, to my knowledge, tortures for the sake of enjoyment through the suffering of another animal (collecting tears). They do it out of necessity or simply because they find the play or chase entertaining.


cant tell if trolling or just ********.


I'll clear it up a bit. An animal can certainly play and even torture. I am not arguing this. I am arguing the intentions on why they do it.

A cat may play with a mouse; catch, release, catch again, for example, until the unfortunate mouse tires and dies. There is no doubt the mouse has been put through agonizing pain. The question here is is the cat enjoying the mouse's suffering and feelings of pain? Is it doing it because the chase is a challenge without regards to the mouse's feelings? There is a difference in not caring and caring (as in caring that your victim suffers pain).

If your contention is that you enjoy the suffering of other humans because it's a trait that has been passed on by animals then you may agree that the cat is (1) taking into account the mouse's feelings and (2) gaining satisfaction from knowing the mouse is in excrutiating pain and that is making its play more enjoyable. But my question is can you prove that the cat is indeed recognizing the mouse's feelings AND enjoying from knowing the mouse is suffering?




Very late coming into this thread. But....

Attempting to apply RL morality to this game is likened to getting into a boxing match and then asking your opponent why he hit you. He hit you because that is that game. You hit each other until one of you can't fight any longer.

Now, Eve is a game. It is a game where you can hit your opponent and your opponent can hit you. And you ask why? The answer is, that is this game. Applying RL morality to it is rather misplaced and misguided. This isn't RL. This is a game. If you came into this game expecting RL morality then you have made a grave mistake.

With that said, I have my own morality in this game, separate from my RL morality. I shoot people, I kill people. Some people I don't shoot or kill. I play to my own, in game morality.

Don't ban me, bro!
Jooce McNasty
Islefive Consulting
#519 - 2011-11-02 15:42:03 UTC
For some people its not just about morality in this game its because we can.

Why do I gank in hi-sec? Because I can, and I enjoy it.
Why do I laugh at targets and collect tears? Because I can, and it is fun.
Why do I PVP and kill people who are easy targets? Because I can, I like to pad my KB.

When a game creates an environment where you can amuse yourself why stop doing stuff that amuses you.

Why should I worry about someones feelings that I will never meet in real life who are, playing a game that is described as a harsh universe where you are never safe.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#520 - 2011-11-02 15:46:05 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Very late coming into this thread. But....

Attempting to apply RL morality to this game is likened to getting into a boxing match and then asking your opponent why he hit you. He hit you because that is that game. You hit each other until one of you can't fight any longer.

Now, Eve is a game. It is a game where you can hit your opponent and your opponent can hit you. And you ask why? The answer is, that is this game. Applying RL morality to it is rather misplaced and misguided. This isn't RL. This is a game. If you came into this game expecting RL morality then you have made a grave mistake.

With that said, I have my own morality in this game, separate from my RL morality. I shoot people, I kill people. Some people I don't shoot or kill. I play to my own, in game morality.


Mr Kidd,

I appreciate your post. Thanks.

I don't think that merely shooting and destroying in Eve makes you evil. However, my stance is that if you enjoy making people suffer in-game (ie collect tears) then that feeling is very real. People (sorry, too lazy to look up names) have already posted and admitted they enjoy causing suffering to others and have even proudly attempted in justifying their enjoyment of suffering (sadism) by claiming it's a trait that has been inherited from animals. But my problem with that is that there is no proof linking that animals enjoy inflicting pain for the sake of suffering.

Anyway, I don't think all pirates are mean people. But I do believe that this game attracts a lot of bottom-of-the-barrel types that thrive in making people miserable for their own enjoyment. And I also believe that these types find themselves a home as PVPers because it allows them to easily use the game as a tool to grief play.

It doesn't take much reading in these forums to find a thread from someone expressing how much they enjoyed making someone quit or lash out. And I'm just saying, if you're going to blame animal inheritance for being a jerk, you'll have to prove that animals enjoy collecting tears for the sake of collecting tears.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.