These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#281 - 2011-11-01 04:18:34 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
....


Ranger 1 why don't you answer some of the questions I asked?

Karl did and the discussion actually made *some* headway. He made some good and interesting points. You, however, seem incapable of moving past posting platitudes.


1: I have already answered your question directly. To repeat myself...

No, I would be at most slightly irritated if a friend in real life put one over on me and zapped my assets. Just as I would not take it overly seriously if he broke a non-aggression pact in RISK, or successfully bluffed me in Poker. It is the nature of the GAME, and has zero reflection on his behavior in reality.

You have pointedly ignored that response for the last several pages of this thread, even when it was directly pointed out that I had answered you. Which brings me to my second point....



You did not say that. Instead you quoted my question and then volunteered that your best friend and your wife and son "kicked your ass in this game." So I asked what you meant because it was unclear if that statment really addressed the question I put to you. That scenario is one where they specifically tell you, you can trust them and they then take all your assets - about 50 billion worth so that they do not need to pay a subscription any more.

If you are now indicating that in fact happened to you (and that is how your best friend "kicked your ass") I am sorry for you. Not because of billions of eve assets but because your "best" friend is not a very good friend at all. Just my opinion.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ascendic
Polaris Syndicate
#282 - 2011-11-01 05:51:56 UTC
The left it because morality is merely the result of society confining itself to a set of rules drawn up by the few wealthy and powerful which put in place punishments for for 'immoral' or 'wrong' behaviour.

When these rules are stripped from society you see people emerge as the animals we truly are. Without the threat of repercussions from your actions morality is thrown out the window; anarchy and chaos ensue.

Welcome to EVE, or as I like to call it, "What the world would be like if there was no cops and government to tell us WTF to do Game"
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2011-11-01 05:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Capsuleers are fluffed in-game as immoral, immortal demigods that frankly do not give a crap about human life.

It seems only fitting for such characters to act like superlative versions of real-world corrupt politicians/CEOs/generals.

(This also implies that Carebear roleplayers are an oxymoron)

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#284 - 2011-11-01 06:22:24 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen?



I do not leave *MY* morality at the login screen. I may, however, leave *YOUR* morality at the login screen.

You are operating under a false premise: that what you personally view as moral behavior is what everyone else should view as moral behavior (or immoral).

This has nothing to do with in game or out of game - to assume that your morality is not only the correct morality, but the proper morality for everyone else, is presumptuous and arrogant, to say the least. It's also the mindset that led to much tragedy historically.

Your morality is not my morality. My morality is not yours. Every person in this game does, in fact, NOT leave their own morality when they log in. On the contrary, they individually choose their own morality and play accordingly. As it should be. It does not matter if that choice fits within your own morality definition or not: it's not your choice to make.

You are choosing to define certain behaviors as moral choices when they are not moral choices of behavior, but economic and strategic choices of behavior. This is true with virtually EVERY target choice. Why else do we rush to loot the wreck so fast after a fight? It's to see if we hit the jackpot or not - was this fight worth the ammo used, the time hunting, etc.

To date, I've never blown up a miner, anywhere. But it has nothing to do with morals. For me, there is no economic or strategic value in blowing up a mining barge. Well, at least not yet :) Besides, I rather do prefer targets that can shoot back... but that's about fun, not morals.

Ultimately, the only morality that matters is the morality you choose for yourself. I would, of course, advise a, um, shall we say, flexible moral compass to follow. You'll find the game more fun.

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#285 - 2011-11-01 06:48:24 UTC
The keyword is the door; that is, the login screen. We're on the internet.

You see...

Eve is not real life.
It is just fantasy.
PVP might feel like you're caught in a landslide, but it's an escape from reality.
You need to open your eyes, look up to the skies and see...
You're just a poor player, you need no sympathy
The New Eden cluster is full of cruelty.
And even if your ship blows, it shouldn't really matter to you...

To youuuuuu

Too late! Your time has come!
It's sending shivers down my spine, body aching for F1
Good bye, sorry body, you've got yo go
Didn't mean to make you cry
Gotta leave you all behind and face the truth

Mama, oooh, you didn't want to die!
You sometimes wished you didn't even play at all...
If I'm not back again this time tomorrow...
Buy a new clone, carry on.


As if nothing really matters, to me...

To meeeee....




 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Michael Holmes Holmes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2011-11-01 07:36:56 UTC
I love this topic, I think the debate is healthy and needs to be addressed very badly.

I have seen some folks say that how you act in EVE will reflect who you are as a person and I agree, no matter what you are doing, you are still going to be you.

I don't think I am the only one who finds it ironic that we have a sort of "high school bully" culture about the morality of EVE, some say that they have a moral code that they cannot break and they end up becoming victims of that morality because of the many scammers, griefers and gankers that roam around EVE just popping ships for the fun of it.

I have no problem when I get killed in EVE as long as the person has the decency to not take it outside the game, I see so many players that come on the forums and brag about tears or post about someone who they messed up just because they were mining. When you log on to the forum and brag about killing unarmed miners, you become a bully.

Just keep it in the game, you don't need to act like you just stole a kids lunch money.

Some of the posts on this topic make me think that some players think they are like The Joker from Dark Knight or some sort of cool bounty hunter type in a Mad Max inspired moral wasteland.

I hate to tell you this, but you come off more like a bully who beats up the weak because you think it makes you look cool for your friends, I find this ironic because we are all probably nerds and have all experienced the social problems associated with that.

Nobody has to change the way they play this game, all the ganking and scamming is what makes this game fun, but when you start taking it too far and people stop playing because you screwed them over...then you are not helping anybody and are just a bully and nothing more.
Hrald
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#287 - 2011-11-01 07:42:23 UTC
Having just taken part in smartbombing 9 mackinaws gathered in an ice belt and podding them: because it's funny.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2011-11-01 07:49:41 UTC
Michael Holmes Holmes wrote:
I have seen some folks say that how you act in EVE will reflect who you are as a person and I agree, no matter what you are doing, you are still going to be you.

This is a shockingly ignorant statement.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#289 - 2011-11-01 09:50:47 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Seriously you may want to tell some of your coworkers that you pretend to make friends on teamspeak or vent with people in order to take their stuff. Tell them that way you don't have to pay a subscription fee or grind missions to pay for your pvp. They may *say* things like oh yeah thats interesting or even how cool that is. But I can tell you I would not be the only one who would think you are not trustworthy.


can't resist. I have. Had a huge heist a while ago. Told me boss, my wife, friends (got a few into the game from the story), even my mom. You know what every person I have ever told response to it was?

Laughter. Everyone thought it was funny. They also thought it was funny that people got so heated about this. You can label it immoral all you want but you would just be again reaffirming my point. The RPG community might take sympathy on this, everyone else is just laughing at how serious you are taking it.

I has all the eve inactivity
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#290 - 2011-11-01 09:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Why should I be "moral" in EvE?

In RL I work hard, pay my taxes, look after my family and restrain myself from slaughtering the idiots who go out of their way to make life more difficult than it needs to be. Isn't that more than enough morality for one day?

While I don't tend to go out of my way to ruin anyones day in EvE (unless your a red or a neut and then you know the score anyway) it's good to go to a place where I can be completely unrestrained if I so chose. The moment you joined this game you accepted what the EvE universe could throw at you might not be pleasant. Live with it like most of us do or find some other thing to do.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#291 - 2011-11-01 10:21:09 UTC
People who play practical jokes are immoral sociopaths (who were probably abused as children) because they gain amusement at the discomfort of others.

Have you ever watched a youtube video and laughed at a guy faceplanting? Then you're a vicious savage, barely restrained from your lust for pillage and rapine by the harsh application of law and order by your moral betters who are entitled to judge you (That's me, btw. I'm entitled to judge you because this is my post.)

Anyone who tries to make the distinction between the trivial effects of an activity in a video game and the drastic effects of assault, theft, robbery and murder in real life is merely making excuses for their own hyperatrophied moral acuity. People who try and insinuate that I am making wild unsupported assertions based on false equivalence and logical fallacies are - and let's all be honest with ourselves here - on a par with those who blame **** victims for wearing short skirts.

Futhermore,

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#292 - 2011-11-01 11:07:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
People who play practical jokes are immoral sociopaths (who were probably abused as children) because they gain amusement at the discomfort of others.

Have you ever watched a youtube video and laughed at a guy faceplanting? Then you're a vicious savage, barely restrained from your lust for pillage and rapine by the harsh application of law and order by your moral betters who are entitled to judge you (That's me, btw. I'm entitled to judge you because this is my post.)

Anyone who tries to make the distinction between the trivial effects of an activity in a video game and the drastic effects of assault, theft, robbery and murder in real life is merely making excuses for their own hyperatrophied moral acuity. People who try and insinuate that I am making wild unsupported assertions based on false equivalence and logical fallacies are - and let's all be honest with ourselves here - on a par with those who blame **** victims for wearing short skirts.

Futhermore,


I would Like this post twice if I could.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#293 - 2011-11-01 11:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Why do people keep trying to associate game play with real life?
THIS IS A GAME. If you are playing the game within the rules, then what is the issue?

If you are having trouble disassociating real life actions with in-game ones, then it's time to re-evaluate your own mental condition.

Either turn off the PC and take some time off, or accept it's a game and being played as designed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Chelone
Outside The Asylum
#294 - 2011-11-01 11:16:53 UTC
I'll reiterate the main point, since people seem to be ignoring it. Hurting people in-game for in-game advantage is not an issue and is not immoral. "Feeding off of people's tears" i.e. hurting people IRL using Eve as the tool by which to do so is immoral. Not that I have a problem with that existing, but I don't allow those people to claim to be moral.

The griefer that suicides a noob is gaining no in-game advantage. It is not like a broken treaty in Risk, or a deceptive move in Chess where you are doing it for game advantage. If you insist on using Risk as an example (a board game taking only hours, as opposed to Eve which takes years), it would be like spending all your armies targeting another player in Risk for no legitimate in-game reason, but "just to be a jerk" and hurt that player. You wouldn't want to play Risk very long with people like that.

Also, in Risk: when I make treaties, I honor them. So that when I play Risk in the future, people will know I honor my treaties, and I will continue to be able to make them. If you are known to be a liar and backstabber, people won't trust you and thus you will ultimately lose advantage.

As for Ranger's claims that "he wouldn't care if his IRL friend backstabbed him in Eve and destroyed/stole everything he had" -- what an obvious lie. Most of us know he would care and that it would affect RL to an extent. I think he actually believes his own lies though.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#295 - 2011-11-01 11:20:27 UTC
Chelone wrote:
I'll reiterate the main point, since people seem to be ignoring it. Hurting people in-game for in-game advantage is not an issue and is not immoral. "Feeding off of people's tears" i.e. hurting people IRL using Eve as the tool by which to do so is immoral. Not that I have a problem with that existing, but I don't allow those people to claim to be moral.
.


It's a pity you weren't present during some of the games of Monopoly that my siblings and I played as children. The weaksauce goody-two-shoes level pushing and shoving (no biting!) that passes for "griefing" in EVE wouldn't have got you Old Kent Road, never mind Mayfair or Park Lane, in our games.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#296 - 2011-11-01 11:22:46 UTC
Chelone wrote:

As for Ranger's claims that "he wouldn't care if his IRL friend backstabbed him in Eve and destroyed/stole everything he had" -- what an obvious lie. Most of us know he would care and that it would affect RL to an extent. I think he actually believes his own lies though.


You'd write off a friendship over a stupid video game, and you're the one telling other people that they're the ones with emotional issues...?

What would you do if your brother stiffed you for his half of the pizza money? Call the police?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#297 - 2011-11-01 11:28:05 UTC
Chelone wrote:
I'll reiterate the main point, since people seem to be ignoring it. Hurting people in-game for in-game advantage is not an issue and is not immoral. "Feeding off of people's tears" i.e. hurting people IRL using Eve as the tool by which to do so is immoral. Not that I have a problem with that existing, but I don't allow those people to claim to be moral.


But why would everyone have to be of high moral standing in a roleplaying game?

Why would the role of Ming the Mercyless (or just being a plain complete asshat) not be a valid role?

And noone is able to hurting people IRL using EvE. Unless that person has decided to connect some sort of unstable high power feedback system that hurts said player when his avatar in the game gets hit.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#298 - 2011-11-01 11:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Chelone wrote:
I'll reiterate the main point, since people seem to be ignoring it. Hurting people in-game for in-game advantage is not an issue and is not immoral. "Feeding off of people's tears" i.e. hurting people IRL using Eve as the tool by which to do so is immoral. Not that I have a problem with that existing, but I don't allow those people to claim to be moral.
It's a game, I like shooting and blowing people up in the game. You are the one with an issue, as you seemingly cannot get that one simple point

Chelone wrote:
As for Ranger's claims that "he wouldn't care if his IRL friend backstabbed him in Eve and destroyed/stole everything he had" -- what an obvious lie. Most of us know he would care and that it would affect RL to an extent. I think he actually believes his own lies though.
It's not a lie. I play FPS quite often with friends and when they go looking for me to stab me in the back, we laugh about it. Why would I approach it any differently with Eve?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#299 - 2011-11-01 11:33:43 UTC
Chelone wrote:
I'll reiterate the main point, since people seem to be ignoring it. Hurting people in-game for in-game advantage is not an issue and is not immoral. "Feeding off of people's tears" i.e. hurting people IRL using Eve as the tool by which to do so is immoral. Not that I have a problem with that existing, but I don't allow those people to claim to be moral.


It has been discussed but you haven't read the entire thread. Tear cosumption may or may not be immoral, because you have no way of differentiating the in game actions and movtivations from real life ones. I like to poke fun at the the matar fw ppl sometimes calling them dogs and such because it provokes fights(\o/). Yes, people might be assholes on teh other side of the PC. However, the game you are playing does nothing to confirm their out of game behavior.


Chelone wrote:

The griefer that suicides a noob is gaining no in-game advantage. It is not like a broken treaty in Risk, or a deceptive move in Chess where you are doing it for game advantage. If you insist on using Risk as an example (a board game taking only hours, as opposed to Eve which takes years), it would be like spending all your armies targeting another player in Risk for no legitimate in-game reason, but "just to be a jerk" and hurt that player. You wouldn't want to play Risk very long with people like that.


Untrue again. The griefer usually sucks at pvp. They wan to pvp but don't want to lose. They have found a way to pvp and not lose. Tada.

Chelone wrote:

Also, in Risk: when I make treaties, I honor them. So that when I play Risk in the future, people will know I honor my treaties, and I will continue to be able to make them. If you are known to be a liar and backstabber, people won't trust you and thus you will ultimately lose advantage.


That is a STRATEGY. I hope you can see that in your arguement. You honor your arangements in RISK. That is a style to play that has some significant rewards in RISK. In EVE, sharing your assets with a corp or other people is the same thing. You are playing strategically to do something with others you couldn't do by yourself. You don't have to play that way and morality has nothing to do with the choice of strategy.

Chelone wrote:

As for Ranger's claims that "he wouldn't care if his IRL friend backstabbed him in Eve and destroyed/stole everything he had" -- what an obvious lie. Most of us know he would care and that it would affect RL to an extent. I think he actually believes his own lies though.


You must not have many good friends. I used the example of losing to my friends in poker. All in good fun. If a IRL friend utterly destroyed me, of COURSE i would be pissed. Most would. However, that is a far stretch from being pissed (happens in most games) and calling them immoral.

Let me illustrate the difference in case it isn't clear. I have a child. That child is a serial killer. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.

My other child plays eve. He robs me blind and pods my in my 5bil isk pod. I am broke and a sad panda. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.

Anything out of place their between those two examples?

I has all the eve inactivity
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#300 - 2011-11-01 11:37:28 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:

Let me illustrate the difference in case it isn't clear. I have a child. That child is a serial killer. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.

My other child plays eve. He robs me blind and pods my in my 5bil isk pod. I am broke and a sad panda. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.

Anything out of place their between those two examples?


Yes. You have children. Lol

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.