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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#181 - 2011-10-31 15:50:57 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Yes, but the issue here is that some people have such a hard time to make the disconnect between game and reality that they feel pain when their pixels get exploded.


I don't know why I would bother, but....do you not see the inverse of that? A position that is no less valid? Take the very end of that sentence and reword it....."that they feel elation when they explode someone's pixels".

If the ganker or griefer can feel real life elation and joy at blowing up another real person's "pixels", why isn't it just as valid for the other person to be pissed and angry? Why is that somehow an emotional flaw?




Its not going to be the elements of playing a game that are the issue (positive or negative). Using Risk as an example. If I wipe another player off the map, I am probably going to feel excitement and satisfaction off of my victory. Likewise, my opponent will probably defeated and slightly down about not having one. However, unless they are crazy, both players realized this result when they started the game, and walk away from it having overall enjoyed the experience.

Lets put this into the realm that the OP is now in the same example. I kill off my opponent. I run around chanting that I am the champion while pelvic thrusting. Until the next time we play I continue to do this. I probably need help and I am defintely an asshat.

On the other side, if my opponent throws the board across the room and threatens me, or even just calls me an immoral ******* for breaking the treaty we had N.America and S.America then he is likely in need of help.

We plays games for the satisfaction of winning and losing, but to exaggerate whats going on to the realm of morals is absolutely ridiculous, even when the game is extremely complex.

I has all the eve inactivity
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2011-10-31 15:54:38 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.

It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?

It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.



Eve is a government sponsored sociology experiment to examine the consequences of releasing the reptilian cloning tech they have been hoarding since WW2.

The experiment has been criticized because it's hard to distinguish between the lack of morality that comes from being an immortal starship captain and the general immorality level of anonymous MMORPG players.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2011-10-31 15:54:54 UTC
Granted I'm still realatively new in the Universe but...

I'm not about to go around looking for someone to screw with just becuase... I'm partial to having goals for the mayhem I am going to take part in. Ganking some poor bastard in HS or dropping on the same poor bastard in LS for the fun of it just seems pointless and somewhat cruel and unecessary.

That being said I've been jumped in the WH on more than one occasion and I don't begrduge the tactic simply becuase you are taking your life in your own hands in the WH and I will feel no remorse when the times comes for me to get my spurs at the exspense of some poor bastard stupid enough to end up in my corsshairs.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#184 - 2011-10-31 15:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
MeestaPenni wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Yes, but the issue here is that some people have such a hard time to make the disconnect between game and reality that they feel pain when their pixels get exploded.


I don't know why I would bother, but....do you not see the inverse of that? A position that is no less valid? Take the very end of that sentence and reword it....."that they feel elation when they explode someone's pixels".

If the ganker or griefer can feel real life elation and joy at blowing up another real person's "pixels", why isn't it just as valid for the other person to be pissed and angry? Why is that somehow an emotional flaw?




To be pissed and angry when you lose at a game you enjoy is perfectly natural and fine. It happens in most every game you can name from EVE to Tic Tac Toe.

When you start projecting that because that other person chose to best you, (take your piece, make that goal, whatever it may be...) that this person is immoral somehow because of it. That they must be immoral in real life because they chose to play in a way that caused you to lose (in part or in whole) at a game you enjoy and feel invested in.

The olympic athlete that trains and sacrifices for years feels tremendous heart ache when they lose out on that gold medal, but they don't feel that their opponent is morally deficient in some way because they chose to beat them.

So yeah, being pissed because you got ganked is one thing. It's fine if you keep it in perspective.

But when you lose perspective, take it personally, and start making absurd judegements about your opponents character... you have crossed a line. At that point you need to take a step back.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#185 - 2011-10-31 16:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Karl Planck wrote:
Sigh, why fw mate, WHY

Cearain wrote:

That said I do not leave my morality at the door. I still don't lie to people on vent or in game for my personal gain. I don't think thats part of the game. Thats just lying for your own gain.


Yes, your gain in game. Its a form of tactical advantage.


In a game where you can convert isk into free game time and thereby save real money its also a way to save real life money by lying. Do you think no one who lies to others are lying so they can just keep more money in their bank account? Do you think they are all just "roleplaying a scoundrel." Or do you think its ok to lie to others so that you can have more money in your bank account?

Karl Planck wrote:

Cearain wrote:

People can claim all they want that they are really honest people who would never lie outside of eve even though they lie and cheat people in the game. I tend to doubt this is true for the vast majority of them.


How would you ever prove this? Outside of meeting someone outside the game and getting to know them there is no way that I know of.



Prove it to whom? I'm not sure I can prove this some people want to wear rosey glasses and never want to just accept some people are rotten.


Karl Planck wrote:


I will ask YOU what I have asked a few ppl now and NO ONE WILL ANSWER ME.


Lets say you have known one of your corp mates for a great deal of time. They have always been an upstanding corp mate and help you out when you need, are polite on voice coms and are generally pleasent to be around. Would you, having only you in game knowledge of them...

1) Ask them to watch over your kids when your out of town?

2) Invest in a business venture of theirs?

3) Put them as a guardian of your kids in the lack of any other relatives being able to do so (as in over a foster home)?

4) Let them house sit for you?

5) Let them borrow your car?

Please, I really would like to know.




As for your questions I probably would not do any of these things if I only knew the person over the internet. The limitations of developping friendships over the internet is one of the reasons I think CCP is foolish for trying to force socializing in their game.

If I knew someone mainly over the net but also in person then yeah I think some of those things would qualify.

What is your point?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#186 - 2011-10-31 16:05:30 UTC
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:
Granted I'm still realatively new in the Universe but...

I'm not about to go around looking for someone to screw with just becuase... I'm partial to having goals for the mayhem I am going to take part in. Ganking some poor bastard in HS or dropping on the same poor bastard in LS for the fun of it just seems pointless and somewhat cruel and unecessary.

That being said I've been jumped in the WH on more than one occasion and I don't begrduge the tactic simply becuase you are taking your life in your own hands in the WH and I will feel no remorse when the times comes for me to get my spurs at the exspense of some poor bastard stupid enough to end up in my corsshairs.


But my friend, you take your (characters) life in your hands whenever you undock... indeed, whenever you log into the game.

High sec, low sec, WH, it makes no difference and you KNOW this when you start playing the game.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#187 - 2011-10-31 16:08:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

But when you lose perspective, take it personally, and start making absurd judegements about your opponents character... you have crossed a line. At that point you need to take a step back.


I get that. Fine with it too. But isn't the comment, "you can't tell reality from a game" also a judgment about character? Isn't the griefer and ganker making it personal? At least, they are feeling a personal sense of achievement. And if they don't get that satisfaction from shooting NPC pixels.....might they not be getting "real life" kicks out of a game?

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#188 - 2011-10-31 16:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
MeestaPenni wrote:
I don't know why I would bother, but....do you not see the inverse of that? A position that is no less valid? Take the very end of that sentence and reword it....."that they feel elation when they explode someone's pixels".

If the ganker or griefer can feel real life elation and joy at blowing up another real person's "pixels", why isn't it just as valid for the other person to be pissed and angry? Why is that somehow an emotional flaw?

Elation from victory is the reason to compete, is it not?

In order to achieve that, though, you also need to learn to eat the defeats and just move on… or even better, to appreciate them for the learning opportunities they represent and try to improve from the experience. Not being able to do so is indeed a problem, whereas enjoying success is not. The “problem" (and I'm using that word very liberally here) that has generated this last wave of “CCP protect us!"-whine threads is rather that some people don't need much in the way of success to enjoy it.

…and just to head that one off: if you're not willing to take part in that competition, then maybe a PvP game simply isn't for you.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#189 - 2011-10-31 16:09:33 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


I'm going to take it one step further than this. Morality in real life is a lie as well. Such a thing demands that there be a black and white code that all must adhere to without variation. Morality is not bendable, it certainly isn't objective. For such an ideal to be real, it has to be immutable and uncorrupted. And when a code such as morality is broken, the punishment must always be consistent. Unfortunately, as humanity has created such a concept, it is already fallible and corrupted. Thus, it is nothing more than a mechanism for control for those in power who interpret it as they see fit. It's a joke, a cute little lie that humanity has propped civilization on top of, and its made of loose dirt and sand.

So really, OP, you are looking for something in a game that isn't even a reality in everyday life. Each person interprets it as they see fit, not how it should be.
"If."
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#190 - 2011-10-31 16:11:31 UTC
Quote:
In a game where you can convert isk into free game time and thereby save real money its also a way to save real life money by lying. Do you think no one who lies to others are doing that so they can just keep more money in their bank account? Or do you think its ok to lie to others so that you can have more money in your bank account?



So if we are competing in a game where there is prize money to be won, if I win does that make me morally bankrupt?

If I successfully bluff you in Poker and take your money, does that make me immoral?

A bluff is making someone believe something that is untrue by misleading them... it is a lie. However this lie is allowed by the game rules, in fact it is encouraged. More importantly, everyone playing IS AWARE OF THIS.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#191 - 2011-10-31 16:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
MeestaPenni wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

But when you lose perspective, take it personally, and start making absurd judegements about your opponents character... you have crossed a line. At that point you need to take a step back.


I get that. Fine with it too. But isn't the comment, "you can't tell reality from a game" also a judgment about character? Isn't the griefer and ganker making it personal? At least, they are feeling a personal sense of achievement. And if they don't get that satisfaction from shooting NPC pixels.....might they not be getting "real life" kicks out of a game?


Of course they feel a personal sense of achivement.

That's the whole point of playing a competitive game against other players.

Edit: Now to flesh this out, if that person who just beat you and feels triumph then decides because he bested you that you have a deep seated need to be beaten and must be Masochistic in real life... he too has crossed a line.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#192 - 2011-10-31 16:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Planck
Cearain wrote:

In a game where you can convert isk into free game time and thereby save real money its also a way to save real life money by lying. Do you think no one who lies to others are lying so they can just keep more money in their bank account? Do you think they are all just "roleplaying a scoundrel." Or do you think its ok to lie to others so that you can have more money in your bank account?


Yes I think its ok as long as within the rules that were initially agreed upon by both parties. I like to play poker. I bluff a lot. Its part of the game, and if someone walks into a poker game not aware that someone might be bluffing, they will be ill prepared to play the game. This is COMPLETELY analogous to EVE, and anyone who doesn't think so is fooling themselves.

Cearain wrote:

As for your questions I probably would not do any of these things if I only knew the person over the internet. The limitations of developping friendships over the internet is one of the reasons I think CCP is foolish for trying to force socializing in their game.

If I knew someone mainly over the net but also in person then yeah I think some of those things would qualify.

What is your point?


My point is that you just admited that unless you actually knew the person you wouldn't invest trust with any real assets you have.

You are saying that though you trust someone in game, this doesn't bear on how you would trust them out of game.

It is equivalent to say that even though someone might be a complete asshat in game it has no bearing on their behavior out of game.

They might be a nice person, they might be a sociopath, none of it can be determined from in game actions. *Edit: so it is meaningless to attempt to pass judgement based on how you act in game.

I has all the eve inactivity
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#193 - 2011-10-31 16:27:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
In a game where you can convert isk into free game time and thereby save real money its also a way to save real life money by lying. Do you think no one who lies to others are doing that so they can just keep more money in their bank account? Or do you think its ok to lie to others so that you can have more money in your bank account?



So if we are competing in a game where there is prize money to be won, if I win does that make me morally bankrupt?.


If you lie to do that, then yes it does.

Ranger 1 wrote:

If I successfully bluff you in Poker and take your money, does that make me immoral?

A bluff is making someone believe something that is untrue by misleading them... it is a lie. However this lie is allowed by the game rules, in fact it is encouraged. More importantly, everyone playing IS AWARE OF THIS.



No that is not a lie. You do not lie when you bluff in poker. A lie is saying something that is untrue when you know it is untrue.

Just because something is allowed by the game rules doesn't mean its moral. Lets say CCP said that if you know someone is a certain race in real life then you *must* refer to them by a racial slur everytime you see them in local. CCP would make this a rule so its "part of the game." Yet you know those people of whatever race are really hurt by this. Is it ok?

Why not? The reason it is not ok is because ccp may make up whatever rules they want but they can not make up moral rules.

If you are making people think you are their friend and lying to them so that you can gain their trust in order to not have to pay money for this game, you are likely acting immorally. Do you agree or not?

The reason I say "likely" is because if you are roleplaying a scoundrel or roleplaying a spy then yes its part of the game. But if your main goal is just to save real money by misleading and lying to people then call it what it is.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#194 - 2011-10-31 16:35:24 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
Cearain wrote:

In a game where you can convert isk into free game time and thereby save real money its also a way to save real life money by lying. Do you think no one who lies to others are lying so they can just keep more money in their bank account? Do you think they are all just "roleplaying a scoundrel." Or do you think its ok to lie to others so that you can have more money in your bank account?


Yes I think its ok as long as within the rules that were initially agreed upon by both parties. I like to play poker. I bluff a lot. Its part of the game, and if someone walks into a poker game not aware that someone might be bluffing, they will be ill prepared to play the game. This is COMPLETELY analogous to EVE, and anyone who doesn't think so is fooling themselves.

Cearain wrote:

As for your questions I probably would not do any of these things if I only knew the person over the internet. The limitations of developping friendships over the internet is one of the reasons I think CCP is foolish for trying to force socializing in their game.

If I knew someone mainly over the net but also in person then yeah I think some of those things would qualify.

What is your point?


My point is that you just admited that unless you actually knew the person you wouldn't invest trust with any real assets you have.

You are saying that though you trust someone in game, this doesn't bear on how you would trust them out of game.

It is equivalent to say that even though someone might be a complete asshat in game it has no bearing on their behavior out of game.

They might be a nice person, they might be a sociopath, none of it can be determined from in game actions. *Edit: so it is meaningless to attempt to pass judgement based on how you act in game.


Your confused. I do not have 2 different trusts of a person - one in game and one out of game. I trust my brother. I would do all the things you list. Yet if we played eve and he stole all eve assets so he no longer had to pay money to play eve I would not treat it as bluffing in a game of poker. You are kidding yourself, if you think differently.


The fact that I may trust someone I know over the internet with small things does not have anything to do with it being in game or out of game. I would trust someone I only know over the internet to borrow some non game item worth only $5 before I would trust them with my supercapital - if I owned one.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2011-10-31 16:36:22 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Ranger 1 wrote:

If I successfully bluff you in Poker and take your money, does that make me immoral?

A bluff is making someone believe something that is untrue by misleading them... it is a lie. However this lie is allowed by the game rules, in fact it is encouraged. More importantly, everyone playing IS AWARE OF THIS.



No that is not a lie. You do not lie when you bluff in poker. A lie is saying something that is untrue when you know it is untrue.


Cearain, you have your head right up your ass atm. That is exactly what a bluff is. It is a straight out lie to the other player. On top of that many use words or facial expressions in the attempt to trick their opponent. I am not even going to respond to the latter part of this due to how outrageuos you are trying to take this.

If you want to argue that the principles of the game are immoral (see c*ck fights) then thats one thing, but GL making that sale about eve.

I has all the eve inactivity
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#196 - 2011-10-31 16:38:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:
You do not lie when you bluff in poker. A lie is saying something that is untrue when you know it is untrue.

So, much like betting like you have a good hand when you know it is not true…
Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#197 - 2011-10-31 16:40:48 UTC
There's no need to mix up ingame morality with rl morality tbh. It's a game, it's not real; the fact that you can do all these things which you can't in reality is the reason we play games.

I wouldn't enjoy killing 8 random people on the way to the store just because I do so when playing GTA.

Hi
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#198 - 2011-10-31 16:42:16 UTC
because there is no law. because there are no ramifications. because it is fun. i try to be a good person irl, where it matters.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#199 - 2011-10-31 16:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Karl Planck wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Ranger 1 wrote:

If I successfully bluff you in Poker and take your money, does that make me immoral?

A bluff is making someone believe something that is untrue by misleading them... it is a lie. However this lie is allowed by the game rules, in fact it is encouraged. More importantly, everyone playing IS AWARE OF THIS.



No that is not a lie. You do not lie when you bluff in poker. A lie is saying something that is untrue when you know it is untrue.


Cearain, you have your head right up your ass atm. That is exactly what a bluff is. It is a straight out lie to the other player. On top of that many use words or facial expressions in the attempt to trick their opponent. I am not even going to respond to the latter part of this due to how outrageuos you are trying to take this.

If you want to argue that the principles of the game are immoral (see c*ck fights) then thats one thing, but GL making that sale about eve.


So if someone bluffs in poker you think you are ok to call them a liar? You are not. There was no lie involved.


But again take a friend or family member that you would trust with all the things you listed. Take your best friend. And lets say you invited them to play eve. They constantly told you they would never take your stuff in eve that you could trust them. You had a corp together and kept both your stuff in the corp hangar lets say about 50 billion worth. Then one day you were out doing a mission with him/her and he/she ganks your ship. You go back and see that all your stuff in the corporate hangars are gone. He/she tells you he did this so that he/she wouldn't have to pay for the subscription anymore.

Now what would your reaction be?
A) as though they bluffed you in poker? "yeah nice one haha its part of the game"
or
B) would you perhaps not trust them quite so much anymore?

If your best friend would do this to you, you should get better friends.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jenshae Chiroptera
#200 - 2011-10-31 16:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Could not part of the game be to over come all that and be better?

Follow the sheep, prey on the weak or seek out those that can give you a good fight?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.