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Balancing hi-sec piracy and making it more realistic.

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Maliandra
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-09-16 23:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliandra
I'm one to smile when ganked - I think it makes hi-sec less boring knowing you can die at anytime - but the logic and balance is still not perfect and needs to be improved.

Hi-sec is illogical. You can pay off the police to commit crimes. The penalties for ganking are not severe enough (look at Niarji ffs). CONCORD ends up being more of an annoyance than a deterrent against criminal activity. With the ability to buy back sec status with ISK, this has really exasperated the issue further. I believe the following changes should be enacted to help create more balance:

1) Loss of sec status should be directly related to your current sec status and the sec status of the player being ganked.
2) Remove the ability to trade in pirate tags for sec status gain; or limit it to -2.0 instead of 0.
3) Negative sec status penalties should have their requirements cut in half (ex. effects of -4.0 happen at -2.0)

What does this result in?
a) Gankers must be more coordinated in hi-sec to be successful in the long run.
b) Gankers must pick and choose targets more wisely.
c) Gankers must head to low/null sec after causing a lot of havok in order to redeem themselves.
d) Players who have high security status (i.e. standing with CONCORD) are less likely to be ganked as CONCORD reacts more severely to action taken against them. Opposite can be said for those with negative sec status.

- Right now gankers will shoot down anything that is worth enough ISK to not be in inconvenience (inconvenience being having to reship and wait 5 mins). These changes make them think about what they are risking their sec status on.
- Right now gankers can use a tiny portion of their ganking earnings and buy tags whenever there sec status gets too low. These changes make them have to leave empire space eventually once they have committed to many criminal acts.
>> This makes a lot more sense.

This post does not touch on the faulty wardec system, however I'll leave that discussion for another time.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-09-16 23:30:25 UTC
Naw.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Maliandra
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-09-16 23:30:46 UTC
Yaw!
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#4 - 2013-09-16 23:34:01 UTC

--> Features & Ideas Discussion

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Lady Areola Fappington
#5 - 2013-09-16 23:39:36 UTC
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-09-16 23:45:03 UTC
"I don't dislike ganking, I just want it nerfed a little bit more"
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-09-16 23:45:21 UTC
just a tad
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#8 - 2013-09-16 23:45:24 UTC
The only balance piracy requires at this point is a loud YARRRRRR! sound clip be played whenever an act of piracy is happening.



That, and add eye patches, hook hands, peglegs, and pirate hats...oooh! and shoulder parrots! add all that to the NEX!



Pirates! Yarrrr!

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#9 - 2013-09-16 23:45:56 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....


I propose that we get to be ignored by CONCORD just like NPC pirates do. 
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2013-09-16 23:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Maliandra wrote:
1) Loss of sec status should be directly related to your current sec status and the sec status of the player being ganked.
2) Remove the ability to trade in pirate tags for sec status gain; or limit it to -2.0 instead of 0.
3) Negative sec status penalties should have their requirements cut in half (ex. effects of -4.0 happen at -2.0)

1a. This is already to case. The higher the security status of the victim, the higher the percentage of the gankers' security penalty.
2a. Not going to happen (see next quote).
3a. This won't stop "professional" suicide gankers. Most of them already have -10 (or close to) security status. And they don't ever increase it because there is no point to (why waste time and money increasing it when you're just going to put it back down to -10?)

Maliandra wrote:
a) Gankers must be more coordinated in hi-sec to be successful in the long run.
b) Gankers must pick and choose targets more wisely.
c) Gankers must head to low/null sec after causing a lot of havok in order to redeem themselves.
d) Players who have high security status (i.e. standing with CONCORD) are less likely to be ganked as CONCORD reacts more severely to action taken against them. Opposite can be said for those with negative sec status.

Aa. In short, nothing really different happens.
Ba. In short, nothing really different happens
Ca. Rumor has it that one of the reasons CCP introduced the Tags4Sec system was because grinding one's security status is such a pain in the ass (if you didn't have SOV in 0.0 space) that most "casual people" quit the game entirely rather than grind it up. The exception to this would be the aforementioned "professionals" who had the support network and/or funding to not care about sec-status loss at all.
Da. As long as players rage when they are ganked... people will "lol-gank." As long as people fill their Freighters up with enough goods to make a gank potentially profitable, "professional gankers" will stick around.

Maliandra wrote:
- Right now gankers will shoot down anything that is worth enough ISK to not be in inconvenience (inconvenience being having to reship and wait 5 mins). These changes make them think about what they are risking their sec status on.
- Right now gankers can use a tiny portion of their ganking earnings and buy tags whenever there sec status gets too low. These changes make them have to leave empire space eventually once they have committed to many criminal acts.

- Pro-tip: the timer for criminal status (see: the status where CONCORD will gank you in high-sec for illegal aggression) is around 15 minutes.
- I fail to see a problem with suicide ganking stuff that will yield a potential profit. And none of your "penalties" will do anything to curb it.
- profiting from a suicide gank is not a guarantee unless the victim of such an act makes it so. Remember that the gankers lose their ships entirely (total loss right there), they may not know of any "tricks" you have chosen to emply (if you chose any), and that loot only has a 50/50 chance of dropping.
- Last I checked, raising one's security status from -10 to 0 costs somewhere in the range of 200 to 300 million total... depending on market prices. Not exactly a fortune, but not chump change either (especially if you lose security status often).


tldr; you show limited understanding of how ganking works... how much effort "good" gankers put in to their trade... what the penalties of ganking actually mean... the mentality that drives us... etc.
Moreover, your idea smacks of the same viewpoint that so many over the years have pushed... "nerf it just a little more"... "it's out of control! Put in harsher penalties!"... "this isn't right! Make ganking hurt!"
And the finny thing is... it HAS been nerfed. The penalties have been increased and/or made stiffer. Mining barges have been buffed, insurance no longer pays out for suicide ganking, sec status penalties were increased, CONCORD response time made faster, "boomerang" tactics nullified... etc

The "goal post" keeps getting moved back a bit more every year for gankers... and despite ganking rates seeming to fall in recent times compared to the past, people still complain about suicide ganking as if it is spreading like the plague.
When does it stop?

How did you Veterans start?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#11 - 2013-09-17 00:05:20 UTC
Make highsec safer

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2013-09-17 00:07:52 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

If of course, 99% of gankers weren't alts who don't need to PvE, fly low agility ships, attend markets or do anything but gank, this could be a real issue.
However, since 99% of Gankers are alts made purely to gank..... it's meaningless consequences for the most part.

Gankers being separate from low sec pirates here obviously.
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#13 - 2013-09-17 00:10:45 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

If of course, 99% of gankers weren't alts who don't need to PvE, fly low agility ships, attend markets or do anything but gank, this could be a real issue.
However, since 99% of Gankers are alts made purely to gank..... it's meaningless consequences for the most part.

Gankers being separate from low sec pirates here obviously.


Ok, so you are telling me that we should be punished for our efforts to mitigate the unpleasant parts of our chosen profession.

Alrighty, then what are we going to do to the miners who go afk to mitigate how boring mining is? Wait, I know, we can blow them up!
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2013-09-17 00:16:17 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:


Ok, so you are telling me that we should be punished for our efforts to mitigate the unpleasant parts of our chosen profession.

Alrighty, then what are we going to do to the miners who go afk to mitigate how boring mining is? Wait, I know, we can blow them up!


Where did I say anything of the sort. All I said was that trying to claim those 'downsides' as consequences is a joke because of how it gets played. If you want to try and make an argument by misquoting and misrepresenting though, go right ahead, it simply makes you look afraid that someone might make it a little harder.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#15 - 2013-09-17 00:19:35 UTC
Balancing piracy, or whatever you call it, always means nerf ganking, nerf bumping and so on

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#16 - 2013-09-17 00:20:43 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, being unable to fly low agility ships, unable to engage in PVE activities, shootable anywhere we go, and other such issues are not severe enough? (this of course, assuming you go outlaw, if yer smart enough to manage your sec status, more power to you)


Here's my counter proposal, for PVE types...the more red crosses you kill, the bigger ships they fling at you. Unlimited scale up, eventually, you will lose your ship to a superpower 'rat. It just makes sense.....

If of course, 99% of gankers weren't alts who don't need to PvE, fly low agility ships, attend markets or do anything but gank, this could be a real issue.
However, since 99% of Gankers are alts made purely to gank..... it's meaningless consequences for the most part.

Gankers being separate from low sec pirates here obviously.


Ok, so you are telling me that we should be punished for our efforts to mitigate the unpleasant parts of our chosen profession.

Alrighty, then what are we going to do to the miners who go afk to mitigate how boring mining is? Wait, I know, we can blow them up!

Not after you've been "balanced" and made more "realistic"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#17 - 2013-09-17 00:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimson Gauntlet
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:


Ok, so you are telling me that we should be punished for our efforts to mitigate the unpleasant parts of our chosen profession.

Alrighty, then what are we going to do to the miners who go afk to mitigate how boring mining is? Wait, I know, we can blow them up!


Where did I say anything of the sort. All I said was that trying to claim those 'downsides' as consequences is a joke because of how it gets played. If you want to try and make an argument by misquoting and misrepresenting though, go right ahead, it simply makes you look afraid that someone might make it a little harder.


How much harder does it need to be? Even relocating, you can get podded for free. Most of us don't wear implants because we lose pods often, and most trade hubs are pretty much verboten.

If we undock to gank, win, lose or draw, we lose our ship.

Learning to mitigate the drawbacks, and doing so, is smart gameplay. So why should it be punished? Because some people are butthurt that they weren't at the keyboard, and therefore tacitly chose not to defend themselves?

Here, I will spell it out for you. Ganking of any kind has been nerfed more than anything in EVE except the Drake. At this point, if you die to a suicide ganker, it is 100% your fault. Why does that need to be nerfed? If anything, game balance demands that it be buffed.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Nathalie LaPorte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-09-17 00:23:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:


Ok, so you are telling me that we should be punished for our efforts to mitigate the unpleasant parts of our chosen profession.

Alrighty, then what are we going to do to the miners who go afk to mitigate how boring mining is? Wait, I know, we can blow them up!


Where did I say anything of the sort. All I said was that trying to claim those 'downsides' as consequences is a joke because of how it gets played. If you want to try and make an argument by misquoting and misrepresenting though, go right ahead, it simply makes you look afraid that someone might make it a little harder.


'someone' already made it a little harder, many times. Calling a normal and rational expectation 'fear' just makes you look afraid of other people.
John XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#19 - 2013-09-17 00:26:59 UTC
When you attempt to undock with GCC after a gank you will get a pop-up warning that reads: "You are a Criminal"

This is just mean and hurtful and totally out of touch with a legitimate style of play. It should read: "You are a Hero and have done your duty, do you wish to proceed?"

If CCP could make that small change highsec would take another step towards perfection.

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#20 - 2013-09-17 00:27:23 UTC
Maliandra wrote:
I'm one to smile when ganked - I think it makes hi-sec less boring knowing you can die at anytime - but the logic and balance is still not perfect and needs to be improved.

Hi-sec is illogical. You can pay off the police to commit crimes. The penalties for ganking are not severe enough (look at Niarji ffs). CONCORD ends up being more of an annoyance than a deterrent against criminal activity. With the ability to buy back sec status with ISK, this has really exasperated the issue further. I believe the following changes should be enacted to help create more balance:

1) Loss of sec status should be directly related to your current sec status and the sec status of the player being ganked.
2) Remove the ability to trade in pirate tags for sec status gain; or limit it to -2.0 instead of 0.
3) Negative sec status penalties should have their requirements cut in half (ex. effects of -4.0 happen at -2.0)

What does this result in?
a) Gankers must be more coordinated in hi-sec to be successful in the long run.
b) Gankers must pick and choose targets more wisely.
c) Gankers must head to low/null sec after causing a lot of havok in order to redeem themselves.
d) Players who have high security status (i.e. standing with CONCORD) are less likely to be ganked as CONCORD reacts more severely to action taken against them. Opposite can be said for those with negative sec status.

- Right now gankers will shoot down anything that is worth enough ISK to not be in inconvenience (inconvenience being having to reship and wait 5 mins). These changes make them think about what they are risking their sec status on.
- Right now gankers can use a tiny portion of their ganking earnings and buy tags whenever there sec status gets too low. These changes make them have to leave empire space eventually once they have committed to many criminal acts.
>> This makes a lot more sense.

This post does not touch on the faulty wardec system, however I'll leave that discussion for another time.


Quote:
If we undock to gank, win, lose or draw, we lose our ship.


This is EvE a sandbox game this is how players play the game.

Welcome to EvE :)

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
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