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destroyers - gankers and high sec

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Alavaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2013-09-15 23:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria
Galaxy Chicken wrote:
I motion that my catalyst be buffed to be as scary and cheap as carebears think it is.

Only if it gets nerfed immediately

to be as crappy and weak as carebears think it should be

Loyalty is a virtue, participation brings reward.
John XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#102 - 2013-09-16 01:23:46 UTC
Maximum effort, try-hard Knight of the New Order:

+5% small hybrid damage implant
+5% rate of fire implant
+5% sig analysis implant (because must git da podz)

8 small neutron IIs
2 meta sebos w/ scan res scripts
3 mag stab IIs
small hybrid collision rig
small hybrid burst rig

w/ perfect gunnery skills this will get you 758 over-heated dps. This is the top end for Code. gankers. Anything more will lead to ridicule and "accidents."

Touching on Procurers and Skiffs. We never kill them because if we have the dps for one we usually have the deeps for an anti-tanked Orca. And believe it or not, anti-tanked orcas aren't hard to find. It's always a thrill to kill an Orca surrounded by a cute little fleet of Skiffs. I won't say it's my favorite situation to gank in but it's really close to the top.

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2013-09-16 03:45:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Belana Mawr wrote:
I am seeing gankers kill ships on 0.5 every 20 minutes. They use 3mills isk worth of destroyer that packs an 800dps hit and is more than capable of taking down 250mill worth of hulk tanked or otherwise.
No, they really aren't.

Quote:
They sit at safe spots and have alts deliver destroyers to them then bookmark and warp in on there targets often snagging the pods too because of the concord response times.
Have you tried hunting down and killing them?

Quote:
What can we suggest to CCP to implement and make ganking more cost worthy?
A better question is “why?” Why should it cost more?

Ok I'll play the stupid game with you.

I'll use a real life example.

In real life, just like in EvE there are consequences for actions, in real life this is usually monetary penalty (fine), community service (time) or jail time (freedom).

In EvE, just like in real life there are consequences for actions, in EvE this is monetary (loss of ship and mods) and security status (freedom).

In real life we control crime by balancing the penalties with the crime. If you illegally park your car you get small fine. If you rob a bank you get imprisoned.

If robbing a bank incurred the same penalty as illegally parking your car, then many many people would rob banks because the profits to be made far outweigh the consequences.

In EvE, blowing up someones 100 million hulk, or 6 billion jump freighter incurs the equivalent of a parking fine, since the sec loss is so small and so easily fixed, and the cost is 98% less (it cost 5000% more isk to gank in 2009) then it was when these ships came out.

If you use my real life example and dropped the penalties in the same way, in 2009 you got 20 years for robbing a bank, if we drop that by 98% you now get 4 months.

Now Tippia I know you're a smart person but I also know you'll make yourself look foolish by trying to argue this with some inane obfuscation to prove me wrong. I look forward to what you come up with.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#104 - 2013-09-16 03:56:31 UTC
Tippia challenges Infinity Ziona with: Why? Why should it cost more?

Ziona answers with: Because real life.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#105 - 2013-09-16 04:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
In real life, I can derail a multi million dollar train with a $35 dollar crowbar.

In real life, I can blow up a semi trailer, or even an armored car worth about $2,000,000 with about $5,000 worth of fertilizer.

In real life, I can make napalm by mixing gasoline and packing peanuts (no ****, Styrofoam and gas makes napalm).

In real life, criminals don't have a 100% chance of being caught.

But most importantly, in real life I am not functionally a god.

So please, tell me some more about how using something cost effective to defeat a larger ship isn't realistic, in a game where we can reincarnate after being incinerated in a fiery death millions of kilometers away.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#106 - 2013-09-16 04:19:05 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Ok I'll play the stupid game with you.

looks like you have a head start
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#107 - 2013-09-16 04:19:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


If robbing a bank incurred the same penalty as illegally parking your car


Or people will be very careful parking their cars.



Well, they could make it so that...

Person A ganks person B causing Concord to blow up person A. Person B loses a 100m isk ship to person A. Person A was loses a 15m isk ship to Concord.

Person A remains flagged for just Concord so that Concord will warp to them and blow up any ship they enter hi sec with until person A loses 85m worth of ship(s). 85m + 15m (ship used to gank) = 100m (same worth that the gankee lost).

However, to balance this...

If person A is in a 100m isk ship and ganks someone in a 15m isk ship causing Concord to step in to blow up person A, then person A receives the difference (85m) into their account.

The person who does the ganking can deflag without losing the full amount worth of ships by paying a % (paying off a fine). Say 75% minus the value of the ship they lost by ganking.

In the example above that would be 75m - 15m so they would pay Concord (not the other player) 50m to clear themselves.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-09-16 04:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
In real life, I can derail a multi million dollar train with a $35 dollar crowbar.

In real life, I can blow up a semi trailer, or even an armored car worth about $2,000,000 with about $5,000 worth of fertilizer.

In real life, I can make napalm by mixing gasoline and packing peanuts (no ****, Styrofoam and gas makes napalm).

In real life, criminals don't have a 100% chance of being caught.

But most importantly, in real life I am not functionally a god.

So please, tell me some more about how using something cost effective to defeat a larger ship isn't realistic, in a game where we can reincarnate after being incinerated in a fiery death millions of kilometers away.

That makes zero sense in the context I was using the example. What I wrote was not a comparison of actions but of consequences. I clearly demonstrated that EvE uses penalties in a similar way to how the criminal justice system uses penalties. They both uses them to balance criminal actions.

I'll go a little further to explain why this is important. Developers develop games to make money. Developers don't want new subscriptions spawning, undocking to be gank non-stop by idiots. They therefore put in checks and balances. Part of those balances are consequences, just like in real life, if government doesn't control crime with penalties, it loses votes and loses government. If CCP doesn't control ganking it loses subscriptions.

Goons and Bat Country have killed 5 trillion isk in suciding players over the last two years. Lets assume they were all 1 billion isk freighters. If only 1 of 10 quit that's 500 subs lost, its likely many many more subs lost from that 5 trillion. That's 90000 dollars lost per year. That's only 1 group of players.

Given they mostly killing hulks, macks and so it, its more like 200 milliion per ship, making it 2500 subs, and 450,000 dollars lost. And that's assuming only 1 in 10 quit the game.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#109 - 2013-09-16 04:23:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tippia challenges Infinity Ziona with: Why? Why should it cost more?

Ziona answers with: Because real life.

based on her other ideas ziona's ideal game 'plays' like a second job vOv
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#110 - 2013-09-16 04:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
That makes zero sense in the context I was using the example.


Unless you actually wrote this, which you did:

Quote:
In EvE, blowing up someones 100 million hulk, or 6 billion jump freighter incurs the equivalent of a parking fine, since the sec loss is so small and so easily fixed, and the cost is 98% less (it cost 5000% more isk to gank in 2009) then it was when these ships came out.


You are comparing costs. So was I.

Quote:
Developers develop games to make money. Developers don't want new subscriptions spawning, undocking to be gank non-stop by idiots. They therefore put in checks and balances.


Those checks and balances consist of "Don't hunt in noob systems". That's about it. Everything else is there for each other.

Quote:
If CCP doesn't control ganking it loses subscriptions.


First of all, glad to see you whipped out the tired old "But teh noobz will quit!" argument. It hasn't ever been true before, and it's still not true now. Secondly, proof or it's a lie. I defy you to show me a stat whereby people listed "I was ganked" as a reason for quitting. I'll tell you straight up that one does not exist. Therefore, you made that up.

Quote:
Goons and Bat Country have killed 5 trillion isk in suciding players over the last two years. Lets assume they were all 1 billion isk freighters. If only 1 of 10 quit that's 100 subs lost, its likely many many more subs lost from that 5 trillion. That's 18,000 dollars lost per year. That's only 1 group of players.

Given they mostly killing hulks, macks and so it, its more like 200 milliion per ship, making it 500 subs, and 90,000.00 dollars lost. And that's assuming only 1 in 10 quit the game.


Aside from their killboards, you just made the rest of that up. How's about, since you have the data of who they killed in front of you, you look and see how many of their victims are still playing, hmm? Not just bullshit me with made up stats?

[Edit: Did you hear that, baltec? Apparently for every 10 brain dead pubbies who are unable to defend their freighter, you make one quit. Keep this up and we might finally have nothing but competent players piloting freighters!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-09-16 04:33:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Quote:
Developers develop games to make money. Developers don't want new subscriptions spawning, undocking to be gank non-stop by idiots. They therefore put in checks and balances.


Those checks and balances consist of "Don't hunt in noob systems". That's about it. Everything else is there for each other.

Quote:
If CCP doesn't control ganking it loses subscriptions.


First of all, glad to see you whipped out the tired old "But teh noobz will quit!" argument. It hasn't ever been true before, and it's still not true now. Secondly, proof or it's a lie. I defy you to show me a stat whereby people listed "I was ganked" as a reason for quitting. I'll tell you straight up that one does not exist. Therefore, you made that up.

Quote:
Goons and Bat Country have killed 5 trillion isk in suciding players over the last two years. Lets assume they were all 1 billion isk freighters. If only 1 of 10 quit that's 100 subs lost, its likely many many more subs lost from that 5 trillion. That's 18,000 dollars lost per year. That's only 1 group of players.

Given they mostly killing hulks, macks and so it, its more like 200 milliion per ship, making it 500 subs, and 90,000.00 dollars lost. And that's assuming only 1 in 10 quit the game.


Aside from their killboards, you just made the rest of that up. How's about, since you have the data of who they killed in front of you, you look and see how many of their victims are still playing, hmm? Not just bullshit me with made up stats?

My math was messed up. If 1% quit that would be 2500 accounts (375,000 dollars per year) if the 5 trillion was divided into hulk kills. 500 accounts if they were all freighters and 90,000 per year in dollars lost.. And I am being very generous with my estimates.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#112 - 2013-09-16 04:33:53 UTC
even if that bullshit was true, anyone who pulls the "but ccp will make more money if they do x therefore they should do it" is spectacularly misunderstanding the relationship between a consumer and a service provider
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#113 - 2013-09-16 04:34:29 UTC
Hisec ganking is killing Eve! Why did it take us so long to realize this

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2013-09-16 04:35:44 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
even if that bullshit was true, anyone who pulls the "but ccp will make more money if they do x therefore they should do it" is spectacularly misunderstanding the relationship between a consumer and a service provider

I'm not saying that's what they SHOULD do I'm saying that's what every developer HAS TO DO. They have to balance ganking against subscription loss.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-09-16 04:35:53 UTC
These numbers pulled from my behind are conservative though, gais

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2013-09-16 04:36:35 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
These numbers pulled from my behind are conservative though, gais

The 5 trillion in damages was provided by Baltec not me.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
#117 - 2013-09-16 04:46:41 UTC
How to: http://themittani.com/features/2013-exhumer-ganking-guide-part-one

Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-09-16 04:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Cynter DeVries wrote:
How to: http://themittani.com/features/2013-exhumer-ganking-guide-part-one

Only a moron would need a guide to ganking an exhumer...

Oh wait...

Yeah I guess guides are necessary

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#119 - 2013-09-16 05:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Best I've ever gotten is 500ish DPS range off a Catalyst.

It takes more like..10-12 Cats to drop a Skiff, not 2.

ISK tanking is an awful idea. Ship worth should have no bearing on it's survivability.

My gank-alt can reliably turn 650+, unheated. Heated, 700 is reachable.

My mining-alt ISK-tanks habitually, and it works just fine. Granted, it's been over a year since the last time he was caught flat-footed enough to be successfully ganked, so he may be an edge-case. Blink

Belana Mawr wrote:
ok I may have exaggerated at the cost of the ship but as this link shows

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20539008

this fit can take out a hulk and pod for only 11mil


This is a fairly typical Gankalyst. Well, a bit more high-end than my gank-alt normally flies. Meta-3 Neutrons, or even Ions, are usually plenty enough. Cuts a bit off the price. Pirate

Still won't double-team a properly-fit skiff successfully. Not even with the T2 Blasters. You need a larger team to do that, and by that point, the ISK just isn't worth it.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#120 - 2013-09-16 05:14:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
even if that bullshit was true, anyone who pulls the "but ccp will make more money if they do x therefore they should do it" is spectacularly misunderstanding the relationship between a consumer and a service provider

I'm not saying that's what they SHOULD do I'm saying that's what every developer HAS TO DO. They have to balance ganking against subscription loss.


No, they don't. To even make that statement means you have to make the assumption that ganking is not just a cause of people quitting, but in fact the primary cause.

Since the latter of those is completely false, and the former is arguable, development resources are better spent on game improvements and add ons, not on retooling existing features.

Rather than reduce a potential negative, they would be better served by making definite positives.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.