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EVE is a sandbox still ?
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Quebber

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 38

#21 - 2011-10-30 15:41:36 UTC

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Quebber wrote:

EVE is a sandbox still ?

Why would you ask if EVE is still a Sandbox?

Are they introducing some form of mandatory Linear Game Play that I do not know about?

I mean your OP talks about Hi Sec PvP which has nothing to do with being a Sandbox.

It has everything to do with "sandbox", if they bring in code to completely mitigate the possibility of pvp in certain systems of the eve universe then that creates walls where no "sand" may pass, taking away "choices and tactics, theorycraft" lifestyles etc.

Paragon Renegade

Sebiestor Tribe

Likes received: 387

#22 - 2011-10-30 15:42:02 UTC

Andski wrote:

let me list off the risks in ganking:

- flubbing the gank, losing a ship and having the target run off unscathed
- miscalculating due to an inaccurate ship scan
- wartargets
- "countergankers"

being able to mitigate risk and having an upper hand due to a superior understanding of game mechanics doesn't equate to "having no risk at all"

It takes five minutes to make sure you're not being an idiot. Really, those are amateur mistakes.

Really, wait at a safe spot while you send in a "Decoy" Mackinaw to mine ice next to the victim, then wen all details have been collected, swarm in & kill them. Mackinaws have no tank of any real value; it's a crap shoot. And counter gankers are rare, from what I've seen, not to mention they'll lose their ships if they aggress first, and they will have little time to kill the enemy if he decides to attack.

The pie is a tautology


Paragon Renegade Sebiestor Tribe Likes received: 387	#23 - 2011-10-30 15:44:10 UTC 1 Tippia wrote: “There is no risk because people are doing all of these things to avoid the risk.” Yeah, that makes sense… The small risks are easily overcame by the smallest amounts of common sense. If you fail at suicide ganking, you're probably an idiot. The pie is a tautology

Paragon Renegade

Sebiestor Tribe

Likes received: 387

#24 - 2011-10-30 15:46:32 UTC

Quebber wrote:

Hmm but the fence is up against the wall, a wall build after the fence went up, how can I paint the other side of the fence without taking it down and that seems way too much work.

A sandbox to me is something that allows choice within a box a box full of sand/options/tools a maleable material shaped and changed by everyone who uses the sand, I just do not want ccp to pour cement in to my sand box Oops

Every sandbox has little wooden walls; "Doing whatever you want" is used within reason.

The pie is a tautology

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#25 - 2011-10-30 15:51:05 UTC

Paragon Renegade wrote:

The small risks are easily overcame by the smallest amounts of common sense.

And yet, the victims choose to be victims instead of applying that common sense.

Quote:

Every sandbox has little wooden walls; "Doing whatever you want" is used within reason.

The problem is that some want to put up more, larger, stone walls, for no reason.

Paragon Renegade

Sebiestor Tribe

Likes received: 387

#26 - 2011-10-30 15:55:15 UTC | Edited by: Paragon Renegade

Tippia wrote:

Paragon Renegade wrote:

The small risks are easily overcame by the smallest amounts of common sense.

And yet, the victims choose to be victims instead of applying that common sense.

Quote:

Every sandbox has little wooden walls; "Doing whatever you want" is used within reason.

The problem is that some want to put up more, larger, stone walls, for no reason.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Hisec to be safe either (In fact, I wish Concord responded slower), but my main issue is that Ganking is a low-risk, high-reward occupation.... exactly what the people do not want. Ganking should have consequences, and benefits, proportional to its risks.

None of Eve does this atm.

The pie is a tautology

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#27 - 2011-10-30 16:01:17 UTC

Paragon Renegade wrote:

Tippia wrote:

Paragon Renegade wrote:

The small risks are easily overcame by the smallest amounts of common sense.

And yet, the victims choose to be victims instead of applying that common sense.

Quote:

Every sandbox has little wooden walls; "Doing whatever you want" is used within reason.

The problem is that some want to put up more, larger, stone walls, for no reason.

It would not be as rewarding if the stupid didnt make themselves an easy target.


Quebber State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 38	#28 - 2011-10-30 16:01:45 UTC Instead of adapting to challenges like the ones GSF bring and while maybe some small changes could be needed, it is the stone walls which go completely against the idea and context of EVE that I and hopefully others are against. Nowhere in eve was ever suposed to be completely safe it just is not that kind of mmo.

Paragon Renegade

Sebiestor Tribe

Likes received: 387

#29 - 2011-10-30 16:05:57 UTC

Quebber wrote:

Instead of adapting to challenges like the ones GSF bring and while maybe some small changes could be needed, it is the stone walls which go completely against the idea and context of EVE that I and hopefully others are against.

Nowhere in eve was ever suposed to be completely safe it just is not that kind of mmo.

I agree.

It's the miner's own damn fault for not being aligned at 75% speed, especially if they're mining in an ice field. Still, I wish ganking had a bit more investment needed, and a bit more forethought.

The pie is a tautology

Quebber

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 38

#30 - 2011-10-30 16:21:35 UTC

Paragon Renegade wrote:

Quebber wrote:

Agreed, it should be possible to tweak slowly over time so that the risk = reward then both sides profit as long as brains are engaged.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#31 - 2011-10-30 16:25:56 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Paragon Renegade wrote:

The problem is that those who don't want that are the ones who make it low-risk and high-reward. They have the power (and, I would say, responsibility) to change it, but they just can't be arsed to do so. They are wilfully voiding all consequences on behalf of the gankers, and then they think it's strange that they can't see any consequences being meted out… Ugh

The benefits are already largely proportional — if you want to go for profit, you need a profitable target, which means taking a fair amount of risks and investing a lot of time and effort into making the thing work. If we're talking about doing it for lols, then it's a complete crapshoot: you have no idea whether the target will generate any, so the risks skyrocket, but on the other hand, the rewards are… well… more rewarding, when you hit the jackpot.

Quote:

None of Eve does this atm.

Overall, it does. The problem is that most of it is not EVE's job to do — it's up to the players, and they don't care enough to do it. It's a player-driven game, and the issue is that some players just don't want to drive.

Quebber wrote:

Agreed, it should be possible to tweak slowly over time so that the risk = reward then both sides profit as long as brains are engaged.

But here's the thing: I have yet to see anyone offer any kind of actual proof that the risk/reward is particularly off right now, unless we're talking about situations where the respective brains aren't engaged… and in those cases, it's not surprising (nor a bad thing, tbh) that things are a bit off-kilter.


Paragon Renegade Sebiestor Tribe Likes received: 387	#32 - 2011-10-30 16:28:43 UTC Tippia wrote: I don't see any diagreement here. The pie is a tautology

Morganta

The Greater Goon

Likes received: 2,023

#33 - 2011-10-30 16:35:07 UTC

Paragon Renegade wrote:

my main issue is that Ganking is a low-risk, high-reward occupation.... exactly what the people do not want. Ganking should have consequences, and benefits, proportional to its risks.

None of Eve does this atm.

it does.

ganking = melting by concord 100% risk

solo ganking = 100% risk 0% reward

gang ganking = 100% risk 25-75% reward

gang ganking defended convoy = 100% risk = 0-20% reward

how is this low risk high reward?

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#34 - 2011-10-30 16:35:34 UTC

Quebber wrote:

I bolded the part that has nothing to do with the game being a Sandbox.

Just to make it clear, if you:

* Made all of the Missions/Complexes/Raids Instanced.
* Everyone got a PvP *** to turn off and on.
* Didn't drop anything when you died.
* Had little pets that followed around your ship and could not be destroyed.
* Made all Market sales buying from NPC Vendors
* Removed all Industry from the Game.
* Hell Removed all PvP from the Game.

If they did all or any of what I wrote above EVE would still be a Sandbox.

Which brings me back to why you asked if EVE was still a Sandbox.

Paragon Renegade

Sebiestor Tribe

Likes received: 387

#35 - 2011-10-30 16:41:54 UTC

Morganta wrote:

Paragon Renegade wrote:

I'm referring to Hisec ganking.

If you choose your ship target well, and bring three friends, it's guaranteed success. The inevitable ship loss is often just a Thrasher or Brutix. The ice, equipment & salvage you get from a wreck of a Mackinaw will almost always outstrip the costs of running the operation

The pie is a tautology

Sebastian N Cain

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 262

#36 - 2011-10-30 16:43:17 UTC

Quebber wrote:

As with many players in eve I have had a long lasting love and hate relationship, a relationship spanning more actual time in game than I ever put into an mmo before in my life.

The best of eve is its sandbox, the worst of eve is also its sandbox, in theory we all love the idea of doing anything we want within the game world but this also means anyone else can do exactly the same and you better believe there idea of fun may not be yours.

Even after three characters and 6 years of play eve still challenges me but for how much longer ?, I am not talking about becoming jaded or seeing nothing else to do, I am talking about the death knell for eve the moment the dev's listen to the whining carebears and make hisec or parts of hisec truley safe..

I myself started as a carebear, mining/pve missions etc, I am not a ganker, not some one who goes in to hisec looking for defenceless people to kill, I prefer my prey to have teeth, to make me fight for my food..but I respect the right of goons to do what they do, of all the people in jita who gank people, of those roving bandits who scan your every ship at gates...

Nothing in eve should be without risk this is not wow, this is not riskless living or riskless pvp, we need no dungeon finder in this game..

Most of the bad things that happen to you in hisec can be mitigated by adapting, using your brain and situational awareness and that trip you made with your bpo's, that mining run, that mission they are all the more sweeter because you succeeded where there was risk..

Recently one of the best pvp events I was part of involved my corp doing some level 4 missions in isikemi, some hisec pirates came in to the mission and tried to get my people to engage, which they did:) we lost a drake and caracal I believe, later on that day my guys refitted there pve ships with points and webs that and me who had jumpcloned back to hisec sitting in my neut domi 1 million km off the next mission, the pirates came in again, we bagged the covert ops scanning alt, then they brought in 2 phoons and an abaddon, battlecoms was called and as my people engaged I warped in at 0 launching my ogres and nueting the hell out of all I could, it was pretty much a draw in losses on both sides but kudos and respect were given:).

Stop trying to turn the game I love in to any other mmo out there please.

Whether in hisec null or low every single one of us playing eve on matter the side should realise a sense of achievement from living, existing and succeeding in a game where risk is part of daily life and for that I bow to you all.

EVE -or any game- can never be a complete sandbox, because for that you would have to include the most important motivator known to man: fear of death.

Meaning: Only one single Char and if he dies... game over. No second try, nothing. Like in RL. Of course you can run a MMO for about a week, before no one would be left playing, so it´s impossible. But that being the case you are suddenly in need for constant intervention by Devs and GMs gameplaywise, because now you have a situation where your actions have no consequences any more (before you begin whining: no, in EVE there are -as in all games- no consequences. Only if irreversible it can be called consequence).

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

morons. 2,458
Large Collidable Object morons. Likes received: 2,458	#37 - 2011-10-30 16:47:47 UTC 3 Eve is still a sandbox - the sand is just getting increasingly crusted up with all the dried poo from all kinds of bears getting diarrhea whenever they lose a ship... `You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)`

Forcas armadas Brave Collective 1,019
Renan Ruivo Forcas armadas Brave Collective Likes received: 1,019	#38 - 2011-10-30 16:49:00 UTC wall of text hits me for crippling damage. The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Ranger 1

Ranger Corp

Vae. Victis.

Likes received: 6,345

#39 - 2011-10-30 17:05:28 UTC

Amro One wrote:

EVE is a Sandbox

Everyone is thinking a sandbox means this

Learn to understand before speaking because you are all wrong.

This.

I know of no plans to make any area's of the game PVP/risk free.

I can see some feeling as if their options for either defense or revenge are limited. While I think a miner's/mission runners options for defense are really only limited by their own choices, I do feel there could be an improvement in the area of revenge.

These Empire folk, and indeed all players in game, need a bounty system that works.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

University of Caille Gallente Federation 341
David Grogan University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 341	#40 - 2011-10-30 17:08:10 UTC Eve Online is no longer a sandbox.... with all the recent rain Eve Online is a bog now Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.