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Intergalactic Summit

 
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"You don't quote much Scripture..."

First post
Author
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#101 - 2013-09-21 08:55:30 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#102 - 2013-09-21 15:07:35 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.


Are you seriously trying to justify your system of inflicting slavery on others on the basis that the very worst off in your own society live in worse conditions than current slaves?
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#103 - 2013-09-21 16:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Constantin Baracca
Well, Bella, having seen the conditions of those people firsthand and seeing the official figures of their numbers, I am confident in saying that this is not double-speak. This is simply what I have seen to be true. To take your argument as read, I have to assume things I have observed to be untrue. First and foremost being the idea that people are really universally free to stop working at their jobs and living where they live. That simply isn't true. Sometimes, we capsuleers who are so flush with money and power forget how the people beneath us live. The simple fact is that people are no more free to live outside the Empire than inside. They are given an opportunity to be free only if they meet the correct criteria, namely that they have the ISK, means, and methods to do so. Three things the government does not provide them to be able to do this.

One thing that you certainly can say is different about our system of slavery is that we are directly giving slaves the skills they need for eventual freedom. They are learning valuable trades, the Word of God, and how to exist in our culture directly. I don't think that it is necessarily a horrible idea to limit people's freedoms until we know they have been trained well enough to trust in their use. Freedoms are not universal rights that we can demand like children demanding candy in our society. They are precious gifts and responsibilities that must be earned and can certainly be lost. I believe this is why our system of slavery is more effective than yours, essentially. You simply don't call being saddled by debts and knowing there is no way out of your current situation as such. All the elements are the same.

However, the idea you bring up about the behavior of Holders is as valid as it is universal across our empires. It is the responsibility of those operating society at the highest levels to fix the situation below by any means necessary. As God's chosen, the effectiveness of our system rests directly on us taking the Scriptural doctrines about slavery seriously. As obviously demonstrated, when the church and central government takes a less active role, Holders (be they true Amarrians, freedmen, or otherwise) are subject to precisely the same problems. In essence, the only reason we have the problem we currently have with justifying our culture is that our Holders were not properly trained or overseen.

Steps we are taking to make sure this does not happen again must be proven in our work program before we can move them on to the rest of the Empire, as we will need to convince some powerful people who do not like change that we need to return to the legal codes of the Scriptures and to prove our system to the rest of the people outside the Empire. People have been taught, from very young ages, that our system is ineffective because the Minmatar Republic is largely made up of slaves who desperately wanted to leave less able Holders. It is obvious that many of these practices need to stop if we are going to successfully convert the cluster. Taking over with military force and then using force to keep slaves in line is not keeping in line with the original tenets that produced a merger with the cultures we took before. That does not produce believers, it simply means that an external hostile force has become an internal hostile force. If we return to the Scriptures and add what we have learned from our Caldari allies about labor management, however, we can do as we are meant to do. If we had done this in the first place, the Minmatar would have been successfully merged as the Udorians have been.

In essence, the reason you are justifiably angry at us and are not well educated Amarrians is not the invasion, as you'd expect. Plenty of people, including yours, invaded and assimilated people. What we need is to regulate the system into something more rigid with behavioral conduct fitting the role. Holders are just as responsible for making this system work as their servants.

So, here are a few ways we are enforcing good Holder behavior. To take part in the program, the following conditions must be met. Some of these are Scriptural, and some came from a Caldari theorist who wanted to remove wages from society by regulating production and labor. So much of what he says rings true for our system:

It is not permissible to have sexual relationships with slaves.

Vitoxin and vitoc, in fact any controlling of slaves with drugs any more than humanely delivered incapacitating agents (to stop violent fighting) will not be permissible.

Live-in slaves serving at an on-call basis will be given four hours a day of education, eight hours of education on one day of the week, and four hours of leisure time on another day. Time spent on-call but not actually working will be counted as leisure time (we assume this will be a post for slaves who have already moved far in their education.

For laboring slaves, we are implementing a Caldari (as mentioned above) work schedule as follows,

Five working days of 10 hours of work, two hours of education and 4 hours of leisure time.
One education day, of 4 hours of work, eight hours of education, and 4 hours of leisure time.
One leisure day, of 4 hours of work, two hours of education, and 10 hours of leisure.
All days will spend the remaining 8 hours sleeping at set times.

We also have several provisions for when force and punishment may be meted out. We are urging the use of slave collars only in the case of violent slaves that would require immediate control.

I have a more complete list, but these are some basic outlines that enforces our own role as educators and providers. Results have been positive in the domestic program. We would have expanded farther, but our facilities only contain so much and we have a rule against overcrowding. We are attempting to recruit more Holders willing to try this new system to see its benefits.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#104 - 2013-09-21 16:42:55 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.


Are you seriously trying to justify your system of inflicting slavery on others on the basis that the very worst off in your own society live in worse conditions than current slaves?


I think this is simply a matter of communication. I think Rodj is simply pointing out that our slavery system does, even in its current state, raise living conditions for its poorest. It is proof that it works better than free choice in picking people back up and fulfilling their basic needs.

I don't think it's a matter of being wrong on your part or us justifying it. It simply is a better way by its very definition. Slaves are always an investment for their Holders and thus worth something in every case, no matter what the case. The impoverished, when left to their own devices, are judged to be worthless and are not properly and efficiently used as a labor force anymore.

Even now, it's working in our Empire. Whether you like or dislike it on a philosophical level does not disprove that the current system does reduce homelessness, drug dependency, and vagrancy to only their most severe cases. Hopefully, the domestic program eliminates the last remnants of this issue from our Empire, so that we can evaluate the benefits more objectively.

Try not to take offense, Gabriel. We are so often maligned publicly as a people that some of us have become a bit embittered. I think understanding will heal the rifts between our people. It's often necessary to see through culturally-learned distaste to get at the meat and bones of someone's point. I often have to see through anger towards my own people when I am talking about cultural issues. They do often have points and concerns that need addressing, even if their method of showing it can sometimes be dismissive or agitated.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#105 - 2013-09-21 17:35:44 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

I think this is simply a matter of communication. I think Rodj is simply pointing out that our slavery system does, even in its current state, raise living conditions for its poorest. It is proof that it works better than free choice in picking people back up and fulfilling their basic needs.

I don't think it's a matter of being wrong on your part or us justifying it. It simply is a better way by its very definition. Slaves are always an investment for their Holders and thus worth something in every case, no matter what the case. The impoverished, when left to their own devices, are judged to be worthless and are not properly and efficiently used as a labor force anymore.

Even now, it's working in our Empire. Whether you like or dislike it on a philosophical level does not disprove that the current system does reduce homelessness, drug dependency, and vagrancy to only their most severe cases. Hopefully, the domestic program eliminates the last remnants of this issue from our Empire, so that we can evaluate the benefits more objectively.

Try not to take offense, Gabriel. We are so often maligned publicly as a people that some of us have become a bit embittered. I think understanding will heal the rifts between our people. It's often necessary to see through culturally-learned distaste to get at the meat and bones of someone's point. I often have to see through anger towards my own people when I am talking about cultural issues. They do often have points and concerns that need addressing, even if their method of showing it can sometimes be dismissive or agitated.


No Offence taken, Constantin. I think a good part of the issue is exactly what you have highlighted. For most of the Cluster, Slavery is seen as something abhorrent, usually due to horror stories regarding the worst of your Holders. You have to admit, not every Holder has the well-being of their charges as a priority. Between overwork, overly harsh punishments and under provision of basic necessities such as food or shelter many of these slaves die with your system having failed them.

I can see a lot of good possible in the program you're proposing. For the Impoverished, Trading their Labour for Guaranteed Food, Shelter, Medicine and Training is a Good Deal. However I believe the point where we differ is that I believe the Program should not be a "Golden Handcuffs" Deal. If this is intended to get the Impoverished back on their feet and being productive members of society they should be able to move on from the program when they feel ready and a suitable opportunity arises, not be trapped until others feel they are ready.

To paraphrase some of the teachings of my Grandfather, Truth comes in many forms, Constantin. I can tell you it exists, but I cannot tell you what it is or how to get there as for each man, it's different and has a different road to it, all I can say is you'll know it when you find it. For you, your Truth may be found in your Faith, but I cannot guarantee that it will be. For me, I've looked at your Faith and realised my Truth lies elsewhere.

You ask that we need to understand your peoples position. I would counter by saying you need to understand ours as well.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#106 - 2013-09-21 18:28:47 UTC
Believe me when I say, Gabriel, that I do understand the other empires' positions. I simply think our empire's situations aren't nearly so different as you've been led to believe. As I've stated before, you really don't have free choice to leave or do anything in your society unless you have all the means and methods at your disposal. A problem with our prior foreign ministries is that we saw society as top-down. Prior ministries thought that if we converted the more affluent members of your society to our more affluent positions, people would follow the tales of success.

Not so for my ministry. I've come to the conclusion that, in reality, we may not have dissimilar systems but we do have dissimilar expectations for members of our societies. Most often, to move anywhere in your society requires risk, risks that do not always work out for your laboring class. If they try to start a business and fail, they will need to be giving their income for years after to banks that financed them. If they fail to pay, their things are taken away. At that point, they are free to starve, since no one wants to hire a tramp who doesn't have the money to even afford a shower.

Their options are somewhat limited, in that sense. While the Gallente do at least try to put programs in place that are like ours (work experience, training, basic needs that do not have any guarantees), the Minmatar Republic has largely neglected this part of their society. I suppose their concept is to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, because no one should be responsible for the choices of the poor. In the Scriptures, this is proven to be untrue. It is our duty as free and sometimes wealthy citizens to help educate the poor. Slavery was a natural outgrowth of that.

One thing not discussed is that slavery becomes part of what happens if your business fails. It is a safety net, so to speak, to make sure everyone will be employed, will be educated, and will be in proper care until they are prepared to enter our society again.

Still, to function, we do need better Holders. Those families who hold slaves need to be accountable for their education and function in society. While I do think your society is basically working as intended (i.e. people always face the consequences for decisions that do not work out) ours had a malfunction at the mechanism. It requires not just educated, hardworking slaves, but educated, hardworking Holders. I think that has been a somewhat natural outgrowth for younger Amarrians, to see the failure of certain Holders as a deviation from the Scriptural doctrine. But were all Amarrian Holders so terrible the entire Empire would have collapsed. Obviously, many slaves saw a chance to return to their native peoples and decided that they were not Matari or otherwise living in Amarrian space. They were Amarrians. Subsequent research revealed that Holders whose slaves remained loyal had certain way of doing things and were very often highly religious families rather than tycoons.

To make the system work, we need to learn where we succeeded and where we failed, I think something most peoples are not accustomed to doing. Self-reflection and examination are not necessarily popular, especially with conservative elements of any government, but it is necessary for problem solving. I think many of the answers are in the Scriptures, but that some are to be found outside of our Empires. One other thing we have in common is that almost all people simply want to make sure their very basic needs are assured, no matter what.

I suppose the major bone of contention is that our system almost assuredly will place freedom in the hands of the Holders. If people always knew what was best for them, they would not be signing up with us to have their freedom taken away. I think, in the end, some people simply know that their fates should not be left up to themselves. I think that is a mature realization in many ways. If your life isn't working out, odds are you are missing some set of skills you need to function and probably will not know when those skills are part of your skillset.

I think what separates these programs we are trying from the current system is exactly what you are describing, though. Holder accountability. We need more control and more rigid structure, not less. We simply need to apply that control higher up the pyramid. Sometimes, I think the most serious failing of our last administrations were our tendency to let Holders be as free as people outside our system. Obviously, Holders require no less education and rigor than anyone else. Hence our new tendency towards regulation and oversight.

So in the end, the problem lay with the imperial government and, ultimately, us in the church. We should have been the guiding principle and light for our people and instead we simply decided our own Holders were all well-schooled enough. This time, we will train Holders and slaves alike to think together as part of a larger society. As the Scriptures intended, we will come together and think as one people, providing unity of thought and process both, rather than allowing wide deviation from feifdom to feifdom.

While in the trial stages now, I think that this program is really the way forward for our Empire and a foundation of the New Reclaiming. I truly think we can make a perfect system to turn the most unfortunate people of any society into productive elements of our Empire. It is all about creating a more uniform approach to labor and education.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2013-09-22 09:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.


Are you seriously trying to justify your system of inflicting slavery on others on the basis that the very worst off in your own society live in worse conditions than current slaves?

The worst off in your current system live in worse conditions than our slaves... all the while you were putting loads of money into building an invasion fleet to procure more People to throw into these conditions, instead of raising those conditions for those worse off. Think about that.

Also, when is a Patient ready to be released from hospital: when he thinks that he is healthy or when he is healthy? Who's more qualified to determine when a Patient is healthy: the Patient or the doctor?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#108 - 2013-09-22 13:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.


Are you seriously trying to justify your system of inflicting slavery on others on the basis that the very worst off in your own society live in worse conditions than current slaves?

The worst off in your current system live in worse conditions than our slaves... all the while you were putting loads of money into building an invasion fleet to procure more People to throw into these conditions, instead of raising those conditions for those worse off. Think about that.

Also, when is a Patient ready to be released from hospital: when he thinks that he is healthy or when he is healthy? Who's more qualified to determine when a Patient is healthy: the Patient or the doctor?


Ms. Mithra, I recommend you stay within the context of the Linked Article, we are discussing conditions within the Empire itself, not external Territories. While I do not doubt that there are problems elsewhere in the Cluster, including within the Republic, please try to stay on Topic. You deal with your problems, we'll deal with ours.

As to the Other Analogy, if a Patient feels that their Current Doctor is not doing a good job, extending their treatment unnecessarily or even making their condition worse, should the Patient not be allowed to look for a new Doctor?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#109 - 2013-09-22 13:46:23 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The worst off in your current system live in worse conditions than our slaves... all the while you were putting loads of money into building an invasion fleet to procure more People to throw into these conditions, instead of raising those conditions for those worse off. Think about that.


To this, I simply Point towards the Reclaiming the Sarum Heir recently called for. Sinking so much resources into building an Invasion Fleet to procure more people to throw into Slavery instead of raising the Conditions for the Worst off in your society is indeed Madness.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#110 - 2013-09-22 13:57:09 UTC
But Cpt. Darkefyre, I'm staying quite within the context of the article you wish to discuss, which states:
Quote:
Conditions on some plantations and (particularly) mining colonies can be harsh, but most slaves are better off than the truly poor in both the Empire and other nations.

I bolded the part that is making clear that what I said is quite within the scope of said article, maybe safe for the remark I made that you had the money to change it but decided to put it elsewhere. Interesting is though that you 'deal' here not with your Problems - quite contrary you explicitly deny to deal with your problems here - but deal with our 'problems'. Or rather you tell us what our problems are supposed to be. If you expect us not to tell you where your problems are, don't tell us where ours are. Otherwise the talk of "You deal with your problems, we'll deal with ours." is pure hypocrisy.

All that said, it is nonetheless the doctor that is deciding whether the patient is healthy or not. There are mechanisms in place in the Empire to ensure that no one extends the holding of slaves unnecessarily or makes their condition worse. By the way the majority of people enslaved nowadays are so for criminal acts - e.g. keeping slaves that should be freed. I'd be interested to hear how your stance is on criminals: Should they be allowed to leave prison when they feel ready to do so? Or rather when justice has been served? Should those people, that have been enslaved for keeping slaves they should have freed, be able to leave slavery behind when they feel like they are ready to or when they have served the sentence they brought upon themselves?
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2013-09-22 14:00:04 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The worst off in your current system live in worse conditions than our slaves... all the while you were putting loads of money into building an invasion fleet to procure more People to throw into these conditions, instead of raising those conditions for those worse off. Think about that.


To this, I simply Point towards the Reclaiming the Sarum Heir recently called for. Sinking so much resources into building an Invasion Fleet to procure more people to throw into Slavery instead of raising the Conditions for the Worst off in your society is indeed Madness.

Well, then you agree that your entire Nation did sink so many resources into a senseless invasion that would throw the people 'freed' in even worse conditions than slavery must be an even greater madness?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#112 - 2013-09-22 14:34:35 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
But Cpt. Darkefyre, I'm staying quite within the context of the article you wish to discuss, which states:
Quote:
Conditions on some plantations and (particularly) mining colonies can be harsh, but most slaves are better off than the truly poor in both the Empire and other nations.

I bolded the part that is making clear that what I said is quite within the scope of said article, maybe safe for the remark I made that you had the money to change it but decided to put it elsewhere. Interesting is though that you 'deal' here not with your Problems - quite contrary you explicitly deny to deal with your problems here - but deal with our 'problems'. Or rather you tell us what our problems are supposed to be. If you expect us not to tell you where your problems are, don't tell us where ours are. Otherwise the talk of "You deal with your problems, we'll deal with ours." is pure hypocrisy.

All that said, it is nonetheless the doctor that is deciding whether the patient is healthy or not. There are mechanisms in place in the Empire to ensure that no one extends the holding of slaves unnecessarily or makes their condition worse. By the way the majority of people enslaved nowadays are so for criminal acts - e.g. keeping slaves that should be freed. I'd be interested to hear how your stance is on criminals: Should they be allowed to leave prison when they feel ready to do so? Or rather when justice has been served? Should those people, that have been enslaved for keeping slaves they should have freed, be able to leave slavery behind when they feel like they are ready to or when they have served the sentence they brought upon themselves?


I apologise for my error in this, I had been focussing on the section regarding your Commoners, not on the Section regarding the Slaves.

However, noting that most slaves are better off than the Truely worst off of all the Empires still does not justify the conditions most slaves are kept in. Logically, if the Conditions are only better than the Worst off, then they must be Worse than the Conditions for the Majority of the Free Population of the Cluster.

Regarding Sentences for Prisoners, the custom is normally for a sentence to be for a set time for a specific crime. Attempts at rehabilitation are usually part of the Sentence, however normally the Prisoner is free to leave once the time of his sentence has been completed, even if rehabilitation has failed. It's not up to the Guards to say the prisoner needs to stay in captivity at that point.

I would point out at the time of the Elder Invasion, I was a Citizen and Resident of the Federation while Holding Dual Citizenship in the Republic through my Father. Yes, I believe those Resources could, and most definitely should, have gone towards improving the Infrastructure of the Republic as was originally intended.

I believe we may both be drifting off Topic however by going into circumstances in which someone who is involuntarily placed in slavery is stuck in the system subject purely to the whims of others. Mr Baracca's Program focusses on those entering Voluntarily. In this, I believe if they have voluntarily entered, they should also be able to voluntarily leave.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#113 - 2013-09-22 14:42:04 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


For the most abject poor commoners in the Empire, including the homeless and those suffering from mental illness or physical deformity, living conditions can often be worse than slaves."


You and your kind have been arguing for years that it is always better to be free than to be a slave, so it is good to see you admit that you are wrong.


Are you seriously trying to justify your system of inflicting slavery on others on the basis that the very worst off in your own society live in worse conditions than current slaves?

The worst off in your current system live in worse conditions than our slaves... all the while you were putting loads of money into building an invasion fleet to procure more People to throw into these conditions, instead of raising those conditions for those worse off. Think about that.

Also, when is a Patient ready to be released from hospital: when he thinks that he is healthy or when he is healthy? Who's more qualified to determine when a Patient is healthy: the Patient or the doctor?


Ms. Mithra, I recommend you stay within the context of the Linked Article, we are discussing conditions within the Empire itself, not external Territories. While I do not doubt that there are problems elsewhere in the Cluster, including within the Republic, please try to stay on Topic. You deal with your problems, we'll deal with ours.

As to the Other Analogy, if a Patient feels that their Current Doctor is not doing a good job, extending their treatment unnecessarily or even making their condition worse, should the Patient not be allowed to look for a new Doctor?


As I stated above, Gabriel, you have to remember that one of the reasons we believe in a Reclamation (which is, by definition, the eventual claiming of the entirety of the universe in the name of God and its rule according to the Scriptures) is because we don't necessarily look at a problem and think of it as someone else's problem. Just because a person is sick and dying in Heimetar doesn't mean we only worry about our less numerically daunting problem with poverty in Domain. Those people are still in trouble, and the Republic is using almost the entirety of its funds to procure invasion fleets.

You have to understand, the Elder Fleet invasion into our system set back calls for a Reclamation by charity and ministry in favor quite a ways. We are managing to maintain some calm, but the Sarum family is using precisely your argument that you use against us. That you are going to invade us and kill all the Amarrians. Whether true or not, that rhetoric has very little moderation in your government.

At present, we at least realize that it is more important to shore up our domestic situation. Amarrian ship design is the same as Amarrian domestic policy design: before you build a better gun, make sure you build a better armor. We are focusing on domestic spending, our foreign investment being built by shipping in goods from nullsec corporations rather than taking them from you. We are strengthening our interior first, and that has given us some time.

But with your government's clearly and unequivocally belligerent stance, rather than your former government's acknowledgement that domestic issues are exceedingly important in your space, you've essentially become exactly what you preach to hate. A hostile invasion force that threatens a people who are really, honestly trying to find peaceful methods for achieving our goals.

And in the same way, the people who made your government the way it is today are now beginning the cycle anew in our government. By making the claim that your violent people will never stop until they destroy us and our way of life, the Sarum family is making its case for war.

In the meantime, poverty in your systems is becoming endemic. People are laboring in often terrible conditions (as noted by even the Republic's own citizens) that they have absolutely no chance of escaping. The entirety of the Republic's efforts has become a hostile invasion fleet.

The Scriptures have stories and stories where good people in good pursuits who lose sight of their faith for a moment sometimes create the monsters that destroy them. You've become the monster our people created when they lost sight of their faith.

What sort of monster are you birthing here in Amarr?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#114 - 2013-09-22 15:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Constantin Baracca
Still, on a lighter not, the political will of slavery. I think Nicoletta is trying, in her way, to somehow make our system of slavery equivalent to something you have and can understand easily. It is a fairly common and often effective method of making your point clear, but the problem is that it somewhat assumes that your understanding of those systems are also equivalent. In reality, slavery is a lot different from anything you can experience in other empires, and is even vastly different from the other forms of slavery practiced by pirate organizations. Really, the only reason I use the word 'slavery' instead of its Scriptural term is because I feel too many would accuse me of artificially softening the issue.

In reality, it was the rest of the cluster that lumped our system of correction and education through labor in with the sorts of things practiced by less savory governments. You don't have anything like it outside Amarr and it simply does not directly correlate to anything outside Amarr space.

To understand the system, you have to understand that we think deviancies are where 90% of all the universe's problems lie. Look at the Minmatar servitude period. Where was the problem? The church and government did not regulate the Holders well enough. Holders took advantage of the situation and became highly variable. In that variation, some held true to their purpose as educators and some took advantage of the people in their custody. It was that free thought, the idea that they and they alone were allowed to decide how to proceed, the idea that they could treat the Scriptural doctrines as polite suggestions and stretch the rules to the breaking point, that made the Minmatar conquest so much less successful than others.

In reality, if we'd regulated the system well and enforced good stewardship, rather than merely suggesting it, the Matari would be laboring or made into freedmen, and probably more integrated into our society, today.

Not a mistake I think we should make again.

Tying that back to the conversation at hand, that is why slaves are not in control, completely, of their own destiny once placed into our custody. It isn't for them to decide any more than it was for me to decide alone to begin this ministry. Just because you think something doesn't make it a good idea. In that sense, a slave cannot be made free if he does not think he is ready, but he also cannot be made free if he is the only one who thinks he is ready. Remember that freed slaves in Amarr become no different (Scripturally, though there is still some elitism in practice) than any other Amarr. People can be put into their own care. If they are not ready to handle the myriad responsibilities of citizenship, they can easily lead us into chaos and disorder.

Chaos and disorder breeds essentially the entirety of the universe's problems. It is necessary that a slave not only have the acquiescence of his master, but also the blessing of the clergy who minister to him, the teachers who teach him, the government that supports him even after freedom, and the slave himself. Only through this consensus can it be known that it is a good idea to free a person into our society.

It happens more often than you think, but if you come from a society where you are allowed to essentially make bad decisions even when you are on intense government support due to previous bad decisions, you probably don't understand it very well. One thing that baffles me is that programs meant to help the poor and impoverished, people who obviously have not made good decisions and have not been taught how to make them in the future, almost universally will allow you to do whatever you want. The only answer if you keep failing in these programs is, inexplicably, to remove the benefits in order to punish the poor soul. If consequence alone had the power to teach good decision making, surely they would have discovered that by the time they reached the depths they had reached.

Part of the endemic poverty of free-choice systems of governance rests on the idea that if people made bad decisions or the risks they take don't pay off, it is their fault. The Scriptures teach us that you cannot blame the student without blaming the teacher. Our system is the only way we can take people off of the street and educate them, stabilizing their lives, and give them all the chance in the world at making good decisions in the future. Good citizenship is a responsibility shared by all of us, but good citizenship is also the responsibility of the society.

We simply haven't seen or thought of any system that works better than this to iron out the bottom end and to put a stop to the cycle of poverty and crime. I'm not sure there is one. It must work as intended, for any system can fail, but the slavery system is the only one that, when performing optimally, removes the otherwise insurmountable obstacle of people failing themselves into starvation.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#115 - 2013-09-22 17:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
I think you've managed to hit the central issue squarely on the head there, Constantin. Lack of Trust.

Specifically, We've seen the effects of the Last Reclaiming on the Matari People, effects that continue to this day and beyond. No matter what assurances are laid on the Table that this Style of Reclaiming would never be allowed to be repeated, we can see those in your Government clamouring for exactly that. For the Matari, we cannot trust that the Velvet Glove of these Programs does not have the Iron Fist of an Invasion Fleet concealed within. For us, the Day of Darkness can never be allowed to reoccur so we act to prevent a reoccurance and to undo the damage wrought on our people by those events.

The Problem is, in acting to undo the effects of the Day of Darkness, we fuel the fears of the Amarr. They see our gathering strength as a Nation and realise that it is a dagger pointed towards their own throats that they cannot trust will not be used. So they advocate a strong reaction to the gathering threat fuelling the fears of the Matari.

A Vicious Circle indeed. We've both created our own Monsters in each other, knowing that to show weakness in the face of the monster is to risk total destruction. Sooner or later, the pressure will build, someone will snap and it will lead to Ruin for us both. I only hope that enough cool heads can prevail over the extremists on both sides to bring us back from the brink.

I understand fully that believe you are trying to help. However, please understand that for every Amarr like you, we see far too many "Slaver Filth"'s looking only to put our people in Chains and expose us all to Vitoxin, purely for our labour value.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#116 - 2013-09-22 17:17:55 UTC
Woe to the Liberal Theologian on the Day of Wrath! For he shall meet the fate of Molok the Deceiver, sacrificed on the altar of God. And cast into the Pit, he shall for all eternity hear the wailing of those he led into Damnation.

The fornicator and the idolator shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of the God who loosens his avenging angels and drowns sinners in their own blood?

The Minmatar rebel shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of the Destiny of Faith, that God has given all the worlds of the heavens to his Chosen, the Amarr, to be Reclaimed? Why did you preach the abrogation of the Reclaiming?

The Gallentean shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of Uniform Thought and God's righteous order of Emperor, Holder, and Slave? Why did you leave me to sin in my Free Thought?

Trust not in the Liberal Theologian, the latter-day Molok the Deceiver . God in his limited mercy and tolerance has provided for us one means to avoid his Wrath, the holy Amarr Empire, that we obey it and serve it.

Amen. Amarr Victor.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#117 - 2013-09-22 18:23:58 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
I think you've managed to hit the central issue squarely on the head there, Constantin. Lack of Trust.

Specifically, We've seen the effects of the Last Reclaiming on the Matari People, effects that continue to this day and beyond. No matter what assurances are laid on the Table that this Style of Reclaiming would never be allowed to be repeated, we can see those in your Government clamouring for exactly that. For the Matari, we cannot trust that the Velvet Glove of these Programs does not have the Iron Fist of an Invasion Fleet concealed within. For us, the Day of Darkness can never be allowed to reoccur so we act to prevent a reoccurance and to undo the damage wrought on our people by those events.

The Problem is, in acting to undo the effects of the Day of Darkness, we fuel the fears of the Amarr. They see our gathering strength as a Nation and realise that it is a dagger pointed towards their own throats that they cannot trust will not be used. So they advocate a strong reaction to the gathering threat fuelling the fears of the Matari.

A Vicious Circle indeed. We've both created our own Monsters in each other, knowing that to show weakness in the face of the monster is to risk total destruction. Sooner or later, the pressure will build, someone will snap and it will lead to Ruin for us both. I only hope that enough cool heads can prevail over the extremists on both sides to bring us back from the brink.

I understand fully that believe you are trying to help. However, please understand that for every Amarr like you, we see far too many "Slaver Filth"'s looking only to put our people in Chains and expose us all to Vitoxin, purely for our labour value.


In fact I do, but the issue is that I've taken the step to come forward and extend the loving arms of God unto people outside of the Empire. It is my place to serve as an example of what is best in my people.

I looked at the situation and realized that no one will win this inter-cluster war with weaponry. Especially now that so many of its soldiers find the effects of weapons mild inconveniences. Neither of us will break, far from it. The Minmatar Republic is funded from abroad and the Amarr Empire is simply built, from the ground up, to withstand assaults like this. In essence, we will go back and forth, like a civilian mowing grass, until all that is good and just in our people is gone. I do not know yet what price you will pay, but we Amarr will certainly have forgotten that the entire point of our existence is not to make money with cheap labor. We Amarr will have finally forgotten that we are our brothers' keepers.

We sometimes forget that our distinct purpose is is our greatest strength. While most outside the Empire believe there is nothing left after death, there is something beyond for those who have worked hard and endured suffering. It is towards this goal, not our own means, that we must work. We must bring the Word to all people, wherever they are and in whatever circumstances, until all of the universe is united in His love and wisdom.

So instead of complaining about extremists, especially outside the Empire, I thought that it was time to set a better example.

Thus do I implore everyone who has done nothing with their lives but fear and worry about the depredations of others to leave these behind. God chose us to spread His message, but we are not the only benefactors of His glorious bounties. He trucks in cleanliness of the soul, and that is not meant for only one people descended from the ancient inhabitants of one island on one planet. God's grace is too large for that. It envelops the universe and calls out to us to stand firm. Not just against our enemies, because to do that is easy. To stand tall for the wisdom of the Scriptures, that unity is of paramount concern and that God wants to teach us, all of us, universally.

Without wisdom, we all live down to our bad reputations. When you look at people calling for war in our Empire, do you hear the entirety of the calls from there? More importantly, do you worry about the words thrown over your shoulder from behind? Do you wonder about the great cosmic irony that, as a people who are obviously drawn from one image, we cluster together in our groups and point our fingers across the vast expanses of space?

We are pointing at ourselves.

I knew that to go out among you was perilous. Amarr who travel into other empires must shirk their beliefs at the doorstep to gain acceptance, we have been told. But the Theology Council gave it a chance. Its boons are obvious. Here, you have separated me, a mere preacher and minister of a faith not all of you even give credence to, as someone apart from my people.

Perhaps I am not apart from my people, but I am apart from what you have been told about my people. All that you know about us comes from fiery accusations, aimed at us by people who are often no better than those they accuse. Often, we see our own demons reflected back at us in our supposed enemies. Instead of seeing what is truly there, we see only what we fear most. We do not understand their true problems and true virtues. We only see dragons.

One day it will not be so. Some wonder why I believe so strongly in the Amarr, but the answer is obvious. One day, we will all come to live in one house, undivided, at the hand of God. That house will not be the one that encouraged internal division by war, government, or economy. It will be the house that called for unity, as the Scriptures ask of us. When that day comes, our suffering will cease and God will reveal Himself to us collected, drawing us with Him into the Heavens to walk with Him, having learned His lessons at last.

Until that day, I know my enemies will seek to define who and what I am. They will not.

There is only one who will ever define who I am, and He does not fear the barrel of a gun.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
#118 - 2013-09-22 20:17:18 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Woe to the Liberal Theologian on the Day of Wrath! For he shall meet the fate of Molok the Deceiver, sacrificed on the altar of God. And cast into the Pit, he shall for all eternity hear the wailing of those he led into Damnation.

The fornicator and the idolator shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of the God who loosens his avenging angels and drowns sinners in their own blood?

The Minmatar rebel shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of the Destiny of Faith, that God has given all the worlds of the heavens to his Chosen, the Amarr, to be Reclaimed? Why did you preach the abrogation of the Reclaiming?

The Gallentean shall cry out, O Liberal Theologian, why did you not preach of Uniform Thought and God's righteous order of Emperor, Holder, and Slave? Why did you leave me to sin in my Free Thought?

Trust not in the Liberal Theologian, the latter-day Molok the Deceiver . God in his limited mercy and tolerance has provided for us one means to avoid his Wrath, the holy Amarr Empire, that we obey it and serve it.

Amen. Amarr Victor.
Words well chosen and well spoke!

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions, 13:21


The real Amarr, the pious Amarr, the True Amarr, shall not be deceived by the blasphemous bloviation of self gratification that leads inescapably to excommunication. People of New Eden heed and fear the word of God as revealed in scripture, not the smooth worded ramblings from this flavor of the month "experiment" allegedly sponsored by a "Theology Council" appointed by a pretender to the throne whose lack of faith is well documented and proven by her refusal to even abide by the rules of her predecessors Shathol'Syn, the ritual suicide committed, by an unsuccessful candidate in the election of a new emperor.

"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts, we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part, revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#119 - 2013-09-23 02:24:51 UTC
I find it quite amusing you claim to be a Speaker of Truth and other such nonsense despite doubts and lack of proof, and then turn around to doubt someone elses appointment by the Theology Council. I guess we should just take your word because clearly someone who's been in the Royal Amarr Institute for over a year before founding their own corporation is a true representative of the Theology Council. Why would they send a Speaker of Truth to a school that mostly teaches industry anyways? Did they want you to refine lies into undeniable facts?

-Eran
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#120 - 2013-09-23 11:09:47 UTC
The real question here is why would the Speakers of Truth have anyone within their ranks who openly denounces the Empress and claims to be part of a group aiming at reinstating the Council of Apostles?
Somone who quoted texts as scripture which are quite certainly not?
Someone who himself holds to views that are not only outside of orthodoxy but outright heretic?

Theology, however liberal it might be, is always superior to mindless quoting of Scripture.