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making T2 resists fair..
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1 - 2013-09-11 21:00:39 UTC
Minmatar always has more T2 resists than the other races. on T2 shield ships.. yet has worse armour resists than the others

for example :-
Sleipnir has 225 overall resists
shield
75/50/40/60

Vulture has 200 overall resists
shield
0/50/70/80

Ishkur has 211.25
armour
50/10/83.75/67.5

Wolf has 192.5
armour
90/10/25/67.5

this is strange and obviously unbalanced having unequal amounts of resists.... also 90% is crazy high for a resist considering it then has 10% as its next resist it needs a slightly more omni approach without homogenising. for example :-
Wolf with 211.25
75/30/35.75/70.5

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#2 - 2013-09-11 21:21:56 UTC
Armor tanked sleipnir has decent ehp you know Lol
Dps sucks though.

Yes I know it's stupid as hell but I fit one anyway.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3 - 2013-09-13 18:28:40 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Armor tanked sleipnir has decent ehp you know Lol
Dps sucks though.

Yes I know it's stupid as hell but I fit one anyway.


how bizzare Lol

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-09-13 20:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Why do people like to add up those numbers?

It doesn't matter what is the base resistance against damage type is before T2 bonus is applied despite addition is seemingly more if T2 part is applied to lowest resistance.

All T2 ships take 75% less damage from their rival's "primary" damage type and 50% less from "secondary" damage type. That's all. Try to run some numbers and you'll see that addition of 25% to resistance that is already 50% to the total of 75% doubles EHP against this type as well as addition of 50% to 0% would. While by your method it would seem that the latter addition is twice more generous than the former.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Snape Dieboldmotor
Minotaur Congress
#5 - 2013-09-13 22:53:16 UTC
I hate the word 'fair'. Nothing fair about this game.

Stop. Find a ship you like and go have fun. That's all
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Void Covenant
The Initiative.
#6 - 2013-09-13 23:06:26 UTC
The ducktape is strong is all.

You also would have to take in mind the role of the ships and other factors like raw hp/agility/speed/mass/high,med,low slots to make a good comparison.
Just comparing one thing where a multitude of properties exists is just empty quoting and totally out of context.
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#7 - 2013-09-14 01:16:12 UTC
Simple addition is an extremely misleading and inaccurate method with which to compare resistances, as Barrogh Habalu has explained above.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#8 - 2013-09-14 01:21:17 UTC
No love for Amarr? I'm confused as to why you're calling for more omni-tank. More omni-tank means less diversity which in turn generally leads to more homogenization and generally bad content for players. This is why tiericide happened.. because the majority of T1s were delegated to the "useless" category and never flown.

Also take into considering that Minmatar generally have the lowest DPS output over other races, they compensate for this by having the highest volley with their long range guns, being able to hit all damage types and oh hey, having higher T2 resists with their preferred tank. I would say they take a hit to armor resistance as a drawback to how versatile they are (most of their ships can armor/shield tank at the pilot's discretion while a large majority of the others races are constricted by their slot layouts).
Xequecal
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-09-14 01:47:33 UTC
Minmatar has the worst T2 resists. As has been said, they don't actually get "more" resists total.

Having EM be your primary resist bonus is just bad. The only things that do EM damage are lasers and EM missiles. Well, there's EMP ammo but that's not really a "weakness" of the T2 resists because anyone shooting it has the same T2 resists that you do.

Amarr ships are rare, Amarr is the least populated faction type by far. Caldari ships have to lose a bonus to load EM ammo and Minmatar ships with T2 resists can very effectively speed/sig tank missiles anyway. Meanwhile, Minmatar have no bonus to Kinetic and there is more Kinetic damage floating around than all the other types combined.

IMHO, everyone should just get Kin/Therm as their T2 resists. T2 EM and Explosive resists are extremely weak because these damage types are so rare. Barrage/Void are half Kinetic anyways and lasers also have a thermal component.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#10 - 2013-09-14 02:19:27 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Minmatar always has more T2 resists than the other races. on T2 shield ships.. yet has worse armour resists than the others

for example :-
Sleipnir has 225 overall resists
shield
75/50/40/60

Vulture has 200 overall resists
shield
0/50/70/80

Ishkur has 211.25
armour
50/10/83.75/67.5

Wolf has 192.5
armour
90/10/25/67.5

this is strange and obviously unbalanced having unequal amounts of resists.... also 90% is crazy high for a resist considering it then has 10% as its next resist it needs a slightly more omni approach without homogenising. for example :-
Wolf with 211.25
75/30/35.75/70.5

you have no idea on how T2 resist work
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
#11 - 2013-09-16 07:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
Yeah I see where you are comming from . .
we have to consider 2 things . .
1) this idea would throw the balancing-madness into an even further tailspin . . its bad . . people are barking.
2) the Minmatar story portrays them as an culture scrunging around to create ships to fend of the invading Caldari-[censored] ; thus, their base ships are all based on [with repsect] trash .

Maybe now they can create ships that are more "proper" , since their culture has more of a back bone.
but be carefull not to make the game balancers get the idea of changing all the Minmatar base ships.
. . . so ill give you a +1
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2013-09-16 08:00:00 UTC
So, I was kind of hoping this whole thing would die in a fire but...

the resists are actually balanced across the various factions and I have the numbers to prove it!

This all comes down to percentages. Adding up the various resists doesn't give you jack squat for useful numbers, it's all about the % increases over the base resists, which are all the same for all four races. This is balanced because resist modules are also % based, meaning the overall impact on your EHP stays pretty even.

Every race gets a 75% increase to their primary resist, and a 50% increase to their secondary resist.

Here's a spreadsheet showing my work.

If for some reason you can't access the formula I used to get the % change it's pretty simple:


  • (T1-T2)/(100%-T1) = Percent Change in resistance value.


This means that if we take a hypthetical class of ship that has the same armor HP for all four races, an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane will have the same overall impact on your EHP for all four races, even though it generates a somewhat more favorable resist profile for the Amarr compared to the other four races the overall change in resists is the same.
Naomi Anthar
#13 - 2013-09-16 11:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
There is even bigger problem out there .

Who the hell thought giving 90% resist is good in first place ?

For real this is insane ... 90% ? Do you have idea how broken this is ? It literally renders EM based weapon systems completly useless.

YES INDEED THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEN 90% resist and 85% resist (for example Amarr explo resist). Not only because most explosive damage can be replaced with em or thermal (projectile, missiles). But because it is straightforward 33% more damage going in. Needless to say with some damage control or other stuff it's going much over 90% without much effort.

And i have no idea why Amarr T2 resists is explo/kinetic ... it should be omni by logic - as damage of Minmatar race (almost every single missile ship there is not bonused toward explo damage and every single projectile ship can deal EM or Thermal instead).

But yeah lets pretend everything is ok ...
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#14 - 2013-09-16 11:30:39 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
There is even bigger problem out there .

Who the hell thought giving 90% resist is good in first place ?

For real this is insane ... 90% ? Do you have idea how broken this is ? It literally renders EM based weapon systems completly useless.

YES INDEED THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEN 90% resist and 85% resist (for example Amarr explo resist). Not only because most explosive damage can be replaced with em or thermal (projectile, missiles). But because it is straightforward 33% more damage going in. Needless to say with some damage control or other stuff it's going much over 90% without much effort.

And i have no idea why Amarr T2 resists is explo/kinetic ... it should be omni by logic - as damage of Minmatar race (almost every single missile ship there is not bonused toward explo damage and every single projectile ship can deal EM or Thermal instead).

But yeah lets pretend everything is ok ...



Minmitars Damage is Exposive+kinetic. Yes their T1 ammo can do multiple types but in T2 its explosive kin.
Naomi Anthar
#15 - 2013-09-16 11:33:55 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Why do people like to add up those numbers?

It doesn't matter what is the base resistance against damage type is before T2 bonus is applied despite addition is seemingly more if T2 part is applied to lowest resistance.

All T2 ships take 75% less damage from their rival's "primary" damage type and 50% less from "secondary" damage type. That's all. Try to run some numbers and you'll see that addition of 25% to resistance that is already 50% to the total of 75% doubles EHP against this type as well as addition of 50% to 0% would. While by your method it would seem that the latter addition is twice more generous than the former.


And what is primary damage type of Minmatars and what is secondary ? After doing a lot of PvP i still don't know. Surprised ? Do some pvp and you will have no idea too !
Naomi Anthar
#16 - 2013-09-16 11:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Icarus Able wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
There is even bigger problem out there .

Who the hell thought giving 90% resist is good in first place ?

For real this is insane ... 90% ? Do you have idea how broken this is ? It literally renders EM based weapon systems completly useless.

YES INDEED THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEN 90% resist and 85% resist (for example Amarr explo resist). Not only because most explosive damage can be replaced with em or thermal (projectile, missiles). But because it is straightforward 33% more damage going in. Needless to say with some damage control or other stuff it's going much over 90% without much effort.

And i have no idea why Amarr T2 resists is explo/kinetic ... it should be omni by logic - as damage of Minmatar race (almost every single missile ship there is not bonused toward explo damage and every single projectile ship can deal EM or Thermal instead).

But yeah lets pretend everything is ok ...



Minmitars Damage is Exposive+kinetic. Yes their T1 ammo can do multiple types but in T2 its explosive kin.


So Breacher is not Minmatar ship, Cyclone is not Minmatar ship etc. (they don't have to deal even 0,0000001% explo damage)
T2 ammo aka we don't use it anyway ? Except maybe for barrage sometimes ? Whatever.

Edit: I will give you tip how wrong you are : let's have fight of retribution vs wolf. Those 2 ships should counter each other damage. But is this case ? Answer yourself.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#17 - 2013-09-16 11:50:33 UTC
With the correct skills, implants and mods. You can get higher resits than 90%. 90% is not broken anymore than you can't kill a t2 with a t1 easily. And yet there a videos of people doing this. But then again it doesn't look that easy.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-09-16 17:15:50 UTC
Minmatar base armor resistance of 70 = 60+10% is better than the other races extra 10% since it's added and not inversely substracted. The actual tech2 racial boni are handled how they are supposed to be handled.

E.g. 90%+10% resist is better than 0%+10% resist. The former is a total damage immunity, the latter a 10% reduction.
Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2013-09-17 02:28:11 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
There is even bigger problem out there .

Who the hell thought giving 90% resist is good in first place ?

For real this is insane ... 90% ? Do you have idea how broken this is ? It literally renders EM based weapon systems completly useless.

YES INDEED THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEN 90% resist and 85% resist (for example Amarr explo resist). Not only because most explosive damage can be replaced with em or thermal (projectile, missiles). But because it is straightforward 33% more damage going in. Needless to say with some damage control or other stuff it's going much over 90% without much effort.

And i have no idea why Amarr T2 resists is explo/kinetic ... it should be omni by logic - as damage of Minmatar race (almost every single missile ship there is not bonused toward explo damage and every single projectile ship can deal EM or Thermal instead).

But yeah lets pretend everything is ok ...


Because every Minmattar ammo type deals at least some Kinetic and most deal at least some Explosive to go with that.

In-fact as this handly spreadsheet shows there are only two Minmattar ammo types that don't deal explosive damage and only four that deal any damage that isn't Explosive or Kinetic and Projectile ammo is overall 80% Explosive/Kinetic.

Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Minmatar base armor resistance of 70 = 60+10% is better than the other races extra 10% since it's added and not inversely substracted. The actual tech2 racial boni are handled how they are supposed to be handled.

E.g. 90%+10% resist is better than 0%+10% resist. The former is a total damage immunity, the latter a 10% reduction.


So, you're half right, except that every race gets +10% to some base armor resist. Not 100% sure why but it's there. Minmattar gets a base EM resist of 60%, not 70% and you rarely see Minmattar ships armor tanking anyway, nor do you see EM being thrown at armor tanked ships very often.