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Black Ops Battleship Rebalance

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Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-09-13 11:52:26 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Dring Dingle wrote:
I
O7


It was in the CSM minutes that this was reference, not in an actual dev blog or forum post. I believe I've hyper linked it as a source and discussed it - I'll go back and make sure I actually included that.

\o/

In regards to the Widow, I highly doubt CCP Rise will be up for buffing anything related to ECM, so we'll have to see!

Once can only hope.



No no nooooooo. Don't buff the widow. Nerf the falcon :P put it in between a scorp and a widow. Cause that's how it should be. (I'm not sure what buffs a ewar tengu gets... Sorry but please let me know :) )

And I'm almost positive that a dev recognised the state of the blops's in the fuel and jump range balancing dev blog.

o7
Jayne Fillon
#22 - 2013-09-13 11:55:42 UTC
Dring Dingle wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Dring Dingle wrote:
I
O7


It was in the CSM minutes that this was reference, not in an actual dev blog or forum post. I believe I've hyper linked it as a source and discussed it - I'll go back and make sure I actually included that.

\o/

In regards to the Widow, I highly doubt CCP Rise will be up for buffing anything related to ECM, so we'll have to see!

Once can only hope.



No no nooooooo. Don't buff the widow. Nerf the falcon :P put it in between a scorp and a widow. Cause that's how it should be. (I'm not sure what buffs a ewar tengu gets... Sorry but please let me know :) )

And I'm almost positive that a dev recognised the state of the blops's in the fuel and jump range balancing dev blog.

o7


Ah, yes. you're correct that they say something along the lines of "here, have this small change, because we know the class is terrible - but its SO terrible that we can't fix everything that's wrong yet." (not a direct quote)

They reference the creation of a second blops, and the creation of a covert blops during the csm minutes.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-09-13 12:02:46 UTC
I'm going to go on quest to find this reference :P ........or ...... On a much more likely side-note..... I probably read what I wanted to hear xD
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-09-13 12:14:57 UTC
This post didn't address why a Black-Ops should not be able to warp cloaked? I think it should. I don't see how it would be any more dangerous (actually it would be less dangerous) than a cloaky T3 which has more EHP, smaller sig, more dps and can use nullifier.

Simply because it can be used in one role - bridging - for one style of play (fleets) should not mean it can't be employed in other ways (covert ops) for other forms of play - solo, small gang roams.

I know which I'd rather have drop in on me, definitely the solo covert ops, rather than the fleet ops.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-09-13 12:26:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This post didn't address why a Black-Ops should not be able to warp cloaked? I think it should. I don't see how it would be any more dangerous (actually it would be less dangerous) than a cloaky T3 which has more EHP, smaller sig, more dps and can use nullifier.

Simply because it can be used in one role - bridging - for one style of play (fleets) should not mean it can't be employed in other ways (covert ops) for other forms of play - solo, small gang roams.

I know which I'd rather have drop in on me, definitely the solo covert ops, rather than the fleet ops.



Sorry but i disagree, a blops can already insta warp out of being cloaked if you are aligned and not in a bubble...
it takes a little skill to fly with a cloak *yay*

a covert cloak on a ships that can also jump ANYWHERE and bridge ANYWHERE would just be OP. if you want to cloaky warp around and pounce on people thats what recons are for. and then they light the cyno.. then blops / other cloaky crap jumps in.


Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-09-13 13:39:40 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
.



"CCP Fozzie

"This is not the big Black Ops rebalance, and we here at CCP do not consider Black Ops "done" after these changes. We are putting these tweaks out now since it may be a while before we can get to the full Black Ops rebalance and we don't want to leave them in their current state in the meantime."
"Just wanted to repeat that these changes are not the "rebalance" of Black Ops. That will come later when we get to them in our giant process of eternal rebalancing.
It's intentional that we're not opening the can of worms that is Black Ops stats and bonuses in 1.1. We simply do not have the time right now."
"

:D ... well... yeah... maybe I read into it a bit more.

but I'm hoping.... soon™
Jayne Fillon
#27 - 2013-09-13 14:04:01 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This post didn't address why a Black-Ops should not be able to warp cloaked? I think it should. I don't see how it would be any more dangerous (actually it would be less dangerous) than a cloaky T3 which has more EHP, smaller sig, more dps and can use nullifier.

Simply because it can be used in one role - bridging - for one style of play (fleets) should not mean it can't be employed in other ways (covert ops) for other forms of play - solo, small gang roams.

I know which I'd rather have drop in on me, definitely the solo covert ops, rather than the fleet ops.


Cloaky T3s are notorious for having poor DPS - I am doubtful that you would be about to out DPS a battleship of any kind, including a black ops. That being said, the addition of the MJD onto the battleship sized hull serves nearly the exact same purpose to a skilled pilot, being able to instantly remove themselves from a bubbled area.

It's not that I'm against letting the black ops have a covert ops cloak, however I am concerned about the potential proliferation of the ship class if it is allowed. The use of cloaky T3s makes ratting in low and null security space almost risk-free, and I believe that this benefit (which is geared towards solo play) would dominate the usage of the black ops away from true fleet work.

Unless there was some way to ensure that the covert ops cloak on the black ops was solely used for the purpose of PvP and hunting down targets in null, I would be all for it; If this is the case, it SHOULD be more powerful than the T3s in their current form form multiple reasons - price, skill requirements, etc. (except for lower signature radius, of course.)

tl;dr black ops is a fleet based ship, and I would like it's bonuses to be geared towards such activities. T2 is meant to be super specialized according to the balance chart that CCP laid out - the T3s can keep their role of being able to do almost anything through reconfiguration.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#28 - 2013-09-13 14:22:10 UTC
I have been going to BB for only a few months, and am loving it so much i am going to more or less go completely covert ops. Since i am in a WH corp this somewhat matches nicely.

By go completely covert ops i was thinking of skilling up to blops. But so many people who have done so, find they are nothing but a portable jump gate. I don't want to "fly" a 1B portable jump gate.

So t3s are also the other end of the skill tree and not really an either or. But at least they can be useful in combat. In fact that is what i would think is the clear trade off. Covert ops cloak II means you have a squishy ship. Your cloak is your amour.

But that doesn't mean no firepower or otherwise usefulness.

just my 2c. For a billion or more, i want something more useful than a jump bridge.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Marlin Spikes
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-09-13 15:23:39 UTC
I fully support Jayne – well written. I just have one comment:

Covert Cloaking Devices wouldn’t make the ship OP. The lack of a covert cloaking device is a significant reason why BLOPs aren’t used too often in the stealth bomber activities other than as a jump bridge. Warping uncloaked tells everyone where your fleet is when you land on grid, where you warped to, and uncloaks members of your own fleet. Without a covert cloaking device, the BLOP ship can’t covertly participate in a covert fleet after the initial jump has been made.

On a side note, it would be extremely helpful if the FC and/or fleet members could see other cloaked members.

(Maybe that was two comments)

Bombers Rule!!!
Jeffrey Donovan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-09-13 15:58:08 UTC
thats alot of words !
i do think drones should be removed infavor of more gun/missle power
who has time to deploy drones cloaked
!
Jayne Fillon
#31 - 2013-09-13 16:09:40 UTC
Jeffrey Donovan wrote:
thats alot of words !
i do think drones should be removed infavor of more gun/missle power
who has time to deploy drones cloaked
!


Or much more importantly, who has the time to RECALL drones before cloaking up and egressing?

Black ops only really need a flight of small drones at best, if any at all.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#32 - 2013-09-13 17:13:25 UTC
T2 resists, plz.

I've always felt that blops BS should fill a close-range brawler role when they fight. When you hotdrop someone, you aren't cynoing in 100km away. You're doing it right on top of them because maintaining tackle on the target is paramount.

In my mind I see blops being a lightning-strike ship. Get in, blow the crap out of something, gtfo. 60 seconds in and out. For that, they need to be quick and deal lots of dps. Make them the opposite of Marauders in that they do a crap-ton of close-range damage.

The range buff that came through earlier was a huge step towards making blops truly viable. Increasing fuel bays and decreasing fuel usage was also a great help. But imo if you are max cargo-rigging your ship to carry as much fuel as possible, it's just sad. I'm not saying its wrong. How you fit your blops is your choice. The max-cargo fit is only one choice. But imo it is less than interesting.

There really is no need for a second blops class. Just focus the blops class on its intended role of insertion, hot-dropping, and rear-echlon shenanigans.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#33 - 2013-09-13 19:44:06 UTC
Great writeup! I'm in the "Covert Ops" camp for the cloak, though.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#34 - 2013-09-13 20:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Saying that the blops BSes don't need to warp cloaked because their primary method of getting around should be covert cynos is fine in null, but becomes irrelevant in wormhole space where cynos/jump drives can't be used.

Everyone in wormhole space is on their dscan constantly, and seeing a blops on scan is a good way to scare off your potential victims. Stealthy movement is paramount in wormholes, and blops don't have it--which is why you hardly ever see them in WHs.

Given how popular all the other cloaky classes are in WHs, it seems unfortunate that blops, which should be the "king" of cloaky ops, have almost no place there. If they continue to be unable to warp cloaked, they will stay that way.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#35 - 2013-09-13 20:10:26 UTC
From someone who loves stealth warfare, +1 from me Big smile

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Just Lilly
#36 - 2013-09-13 20:38:51 UTC
You should all buy my widow hulls now, before CCP announce any changes.

You know they will spike 200+ millions when they do...and you could probably
score a nice little profit before people realize that the production cost for the hulls
are the same...and the pricetag returns to normal again Blink

Though, if they increase the shield/armour/hull by 2000 of each, the minerals needed to build the hulls will probably increase.

Much like some of the t1 bs hulls did, during the death of tierside rebalance project.

It's all a gamble ofc Cool
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-09-14 02:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This post didn't address why a Black-Ops should not be able to warp cloaked? I think it should. I don't see how it would be any more dangerous (actually it would be less dangerous) than a cloaky T3 which has more EHP, smaller sig, more dps and can use nullifier.

Simply because it can be used in one role - bridging - for one style of play (fleets) should not mean it can't be employed in other ways (covert ops) for other forms of play - solo, small gang roams.

I know which I'd rather have drop in on me, definitely the solo covert ops, rather than the fleet ops.


Cloaky T3s are notorious for having poor DPS - I am doubtful that you would be about to out DPS a battleship of any kind, including a black ops. That being said, the addition of the MJD onto the battleship sized hull serves nearly the exact same purpose to a skilled pilot, being able to instantly remove themselves from a bubbled area.

It's not that I'm against letting the black ops have a covert ops cloak, however I am concerned about the potential proliferation of the ship class if it is allowed. The use of cloaky T3s makes ratting in low and null security space almost risk-free, and I believe that this benefit (which is geared towards solo play) would dominate the usage of the black ops away from true fleet work.

Unless there was some way to ensure that the covert ops cloak on the black ops was solely used for the purpose of PvP and hunting down targets in null, I would be all for it; If this is the case, it SHOULD be more powerful than the T3s in their current form form multiple reasons - price, skill requirements, etc. (except for lower signature radius, of course.)

tl;dr black ops is a fleet based ship, and I would like it's bonuses to be geared towards such activities. T2 is meant to be super specialized according to the balance chart that CCP laid out - the T3s can keep their role of being able to do almost anything through reconfiguration.

This is what I use at the moment.

*************************************************************
[Proteus, Interdiction Nully Gank]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler
Domination 10MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
'Smokescreen' Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
****************************************************************


660 / 770 dps - 160k EHP with low grade slaves and 03 gunnery implants. Is interdiction nullified, 16k scram, is able to apply all its DPS, aligns 2 seconds faster than the Widow I use below:


******************************************************************
[Widow, Hatter's Solo Widow]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Dread Guristas ECM Multispectral Jammer
Dread Guristas ECM Multispectral Jammer
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Dread Guristas ECM Multispectral Jammer
Dread Guristas ECM Multispectral Jammer
Dread Guristas ECM Multispectral Jammer
Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Large EMP Smartbomb II
CONCORD Modified Cloaking Device

Large Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Large Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
*************************************************************


1000 / 1100 dps (but with rage so not really) with 03 missile implants, 22k EHP, not interdiction nullified, no scram, way more expensive.

If it could covert cloak I'd still use it because I like battleships but if it came down to it I'd rather this was covert cloaking in my neighbourhood then the cov ops proteus.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#38 - 2013-09-14 03:20:14 UTC
+1
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#39 - 2013-09-14 03:56:12 UTC
The Widow is the coolest looking ship ever, it's a shame no one uses them in combat

+1

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Luscius Uta
#40 - 2013-09-14 10:16:30 UTC
I don't fly Black Ops so I don't know all their pro's and con's, but I'm sure that scan resolution penatly given from non-covops cloaks really gets in the way sometimes. I wouldn't remove it however though, but replace it with per level bonus, like:

Black ops skill bonus:
20% reduction in scan resolution and velocity penalty from fitted cloaking devices

So you'll need Black Ops V so remove it completely, otherwise you'll still have a reason to put a shiny cloak on it (like some pilots do now).

Workarounds are not bugfixes.