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Big Brother Is Watching you

First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2013-09-12 06:48:10 UTC
Quote:
Nine of them would tell you that they did take a look at it once in past 10 years, but didn't like it because it was a complicated mess, more work then game, "spreadsheets in space", or something else along the lines...


You are actually quite right about this. I proselytize the crap out of this game to people I know irl (got 4 converts so far, woo hoo!).

And people tell me that it's too complicated, too much math, takes too long to get good at it, etc.

But no one has ever yet told me that they won't play because the game "mistreats" newbies. So all this is a false flag on top of being nonsense in it's own right.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#82 - 2013-09-12 06:52:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
But no one has ever yet told me that they won't play because the game "mistreats" newbies. So all this is a false flag on top of being nonsense in it's own right.


Might be because players that don't play it in the first place, never experience anything like that... Blink But yea, making the game more newb (not noob) friendly is certainly needed more then creating "save zones"... that also would mean more work for CCP, of course.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#83 - 2013-09-12 06:59:35 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
But no one has ever yet told me that they won't play because the game "mistreats" newbies. So all this is a false flag on top of being nonsense in it's own right.


Might be because players that don't play it in the first place, never experience anything like that... Blink But yea, making the game more newb (not noob) friendly is certainly needed more then creating "save zones"... that also would mean more work for CCP, of course.


Pretty sure I said it in one of my first posts on this thread.

If you want to help newbies, education is the answer, not coddling. All coddling will do is just make them hit the ground harder once they are out in the real galaxy. At which point they quit, or whine incessantly about how EVE should be more like other MMOs. And we don't want that sort of player anyway. (seriously, to hell with those people)

Much as it might be difficult to believe, but I try my best to help newbies. I've probably given away more than my current net worth to various dozens of players I meet, across all of my accounts.

If, that is, they have a good attitude. If they don't, I'll do my best to leave them in a wormhole for the Russians.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#84 - 2013-09-12 07:02:59 UTC
The two things I find that has kept my group of potential nebs away are:

1. LOL Spreadsheets in Space, and
2. "Forced" PVP without understanding what that means.

WRT number 2, they seem to think EVE PVP is something like WoW Arenas only with no level cap, and assume that anyone who "outlevels" them will totally pwnmobile while being utterly invincible. (No, EVE is not like that. There's always a way out even if you can't fight, even if the way out means logging and waiting a few hours.)

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#85 - 2013-09-12 07:04:27 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I can't believe this topic is still being posted in these forums.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Then why does it say this?

Quote:
Pilots found to pursue activities against new players in other areas may be subject to further restrictions as deemed necessary by CCP Games Customer Support Team.


That pretty much says all I need to know about it.

There already was a balance. Rookie systems are off limits. They have been for a while. The very reason it was confined to those system is precisely because there is no way to tell a truly new player from an alt.


The Level 1 Sisters Of Eve Epic Arc takes players through a lot of different systems. Way too many to include with the new player starter system list and some of those systems are heavily populated Mission / Trade Hubs..

The level 1 Epic Arc is mentioned and directed to new players after completing only one of the career agents. As such, there could be players just a few days old in these other areas which I believe is what CCP is referring to with that statement.

In other words, if characters 30 days and younger are constantly being ganked or scammed in those other areas, then CCP will more than likely include those areas to the list as well.

This thread reminds me of various other threads from the past.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100978

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=120647

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178502

One thing CCP has made abundantly clear over the years is they are new player friendly and as such, new players are off limits. If you can't get on board with that, then you best look for another game.


DMC

Thank you for this post and the links.
When I started reading this thread, that old discussion immediately came to my mind.

Maybe the rules are sometimes vague but in this case they are crystal clear. Nothing changed at all.

Khen'do Khen
#86 - 2013-09-12 07:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Khen'do Khen
deleted
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#87 - 2013-09-12 07:52:07 UTC
I wonder if 5+ year vets wardeccing highsec noob corps will fall under this change?


I hope so. If the amount of griefer tears reaches critical mass, we might be able to open the Eve Gate with the reaction alone.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

LTHenrich Lehmann
David Waylen Industries
#88 - 2013-09-12 07:57:24 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I wonder if 5+ year vets wardeccing highsec noob corps will fall under this change?


I hope so. If the amount of griefer tears reaches critical mass, we might be able to open the Eve Gate with the reaction alone.



Your comment I like Blink
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#89 - 2013-09-12 07:58:01 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I wonder if 5+ year vets wardeccing highsec noob corps will fall under this change?


I hope so. If the amount of griefer tears reaches critical mass, we might be able to open the Eve Gate with the reaction alone.


This, by the way, is why I was saying all of that "slippery slope" stuff from before.

The whiners will always find a way to overreach the existing ruleset, and will always cry for more regardless. It's never enough you see, it's always "just one more".

That is, "just one more" until we get Trammeled and the game dies. Then, like locusts, they move on to the next game to ruin.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#90 - 2013-09-12 08:00:15 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I wonder if 5+ year vets wardeccing highsec noob corps will fall under this change?
Under those circumstances, the recruiters in those highsec noob corps are the ones who should be banned for "tricking new players into situations where you or others may open fire on them freely."

Who put the goat in there?

Freakdevil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-09-12 08:29:36 UTC
I think the OP is reading too much into the wording change. New player is written all over the wording. No GM is going to investigate a null sec theft or scam that was conducted in game. Not in a million years. Out of game is something else and not subject to this discussion.

In my opinion, any Vets who spend their time in starter areas need some help. This might be CCP's way of saying that.

DISCLAIMER: That is just my opinion only.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-09-12 08:30:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Sisters of EVE Arc


And? Arnon is already on that list of off limits zones. Unless they're going to set all 20+ systems in that area off limits, it doesn't matter, nor should it.

Quote:
One thing CCP has made abundantly clear over the years is they are new player friendly and as such, new players are off limits. If you can't get on board with that, then you best look for another game.



Yeah, you know, if I actually like the harsh universe they lauded in all their advertising and stuff, I should just quit.

Oh, here's another thing.

I habitually put up lowball buy orders for a lot of the Sisters of EVE loot drops in and around Arnon. I guess I should be banned for, and I quote:

Quote:
Attempting to abuse a new player’s lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain


Because screw people who are properly prepared and do their homework, right?

[Edit:

That kind of crap is why people are pissed off about this broad brush rewording. Because stuff that people have been doing for years with a thumbs up from CCP could reasonably be argued is now bannable. Banning someone for "taking advantage" of people doing that arc (with lowball buy orders) is easily within the wording of that statement.

And that's the problem I have with it right there. The entire thing is one huge "moving the goal posts".


Obviously you didn't bother checking the links I included and decided to cherry pick one little specific phrase out of my reply.

All I see here is you pouring a lot of wine with no cheese.


Myriad Blaze wrote:
Thank you for this post and the links.
When I started reading this thread, that old discussion immediately came to my mind.

Maybe the rules are sometimes vague but in this case they are crystal clear. Nothing changed at all.


Thanks. Guess some people just can't understand.


DMC
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#93 - 2013-09-12 08:37:36 UTC
Quote:
Obviously you didn't bother checking the links I included and decided to cherry pick one little specific phrase out of my reply.


I read them, but they added nothing to your point. In fact, they added credibility to anyone who would care to claim this is the latest in another set of nerfs to add more safety to highsec.

Like, you know, me. But if you'd actually like to have the debate, instead of just bemoaning "this topic again!?", then I'd be happy to discuss this with you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#94 - 2013-09-12 08:38:59 UTC
If you can't Hack Eves Darkness it's not for you.

Stop the baby sitting.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#95 - 2013-09-12 08:57:46 UTC
to me this as well as the TOS rewording seem like the work of a new attorney who's counseling CCP. One who doesn't know much about the actual game. Of course it's not okay to grief newbs, most of us get that.
However, to have terms that are vague at best is not the way to go with Eve. I know that lawyers sometimes like vague clauses as they provide the freedom for interpretation. This does not work in a game where half the content is about "criminal activities". Here you simply need to know precisely what's ok and what's not.
The system rule with noobs was precise. It's no longer precise now.
Also, dear CCP, the vagueness of clauses can be used against you. Ok, possibly no one will sue you if they feel you violated the TOS, but basically you're bound too by the TOS. So you at least should know what they actually say.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-09-12 09:32:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Obviously you didn't bother checking the links I included and decided to cherry pick one little specific phrase out of my reply.


I read them, but they added nothing to your point. In fact, they added credibility to anyone who would care to claim this is the latest in another set of nerfs to add more safety to highsec.

Like, you know, me. But if you'd actually like to have the debate, instead of just bemoaning "this topic again!?", then I'd be happy to discuss this with you.

I highly doubt you read those links. Those links basically contained about 52 pages of posted replies with 20 replies per page. Within those pages are multiple GM and Dev responses pertaining to issues which are now being brought up in this thread.

I'm not gonna debate anything since there's nothing to debate. CCP said "Do Not Mess With New Players". Meaning do not gank, scam, grief, bait, harass, etc. They also gave a reason for making that list of systems.

Posted: 2012.06.13 10:39
Quote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

I think that basically explains everything pertaining to the list.

Now about this :
embrel wrote:
to me this as well as the TOS rewording seem like the work of a new attorney who's counseling CCP. One who doesn't know much about the actual game. Of course it's not okay to grief newbs, most of us get that.
However, to have terms that are vague at best is not the way to go with Eve. I know that lawyers sometimes like vague clauses as they provide the freedom for interpretation. This does not work in a game where half the content is about "criminal activities". Here you simply need to know precisely what's ok and what's not.
The system rule with noobs was precise. It's no longer precise now.
Also, dear CCP, the vagueness of clauses can be used against you. Ok, possibly no one will sue you if they feel you violated the TOS, but basically you're bound too by the TOS. So you at least should know what they actually say.


Posted: 2012.04.26 20:13
Quote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master


There it is. I guess History does indeed repeat itself. All of this has already been discussed time and time again. Basically it all boils down to CCP and the GM's. It's their game and remember, according to the TOS any account can be terminated at any time for any reason whatsoever..


DMC
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#97 - 2013-09-12 09:35:34 UTC
Quote:
I highly doubt you read those links. Those links basically contained about 52 pages of posted replies with 20 replies per page. Within those pages are multiple GM and Dev responses pertaining to issues which are now being brought up in this thread.


I did, actually. Skimmed over the big one, but the one in which the OP was deleted by a mod was kind of funny.

So, again, are you actually adding anything here, or just bemoaning "not this topic again!?"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Grinder2210
ArrowStar Forces
#98 - 2013-09-12 11:05:44 UTC
Most of this Stuff has been covered before but the pages you linked are all old

I think its great thay finely reworded the Rookie System rules to be more up to date with the new Agresstion system
HowEver Rookie to New Player ? People can be Have action taken aganced them anywere ?

These thing have not been covered in the past And need A GM responce that is uptodate

Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-09-12 11:28:42 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
embrel wrote:
how long is a player considered a rookie?

^this... dumb rules are dumb..

So long as the GM decides you are using unfairly deceptive or overwhelming ways to abuse new players just for kicks. Repeatedly suicide ganking a month-old character inside his level 1 missions will get you in trouble. Killing a two day old newb running around lowsec in a cruiser is fine. It's up to the GM ultimately.

Why not go pick on someone who's already hooked onto Eve and has some chance to at least know what's going on? Not only is it more sporting and fair than sucker-punching people who don't even know how to align to empty space, but you'd also not be hurting Eve as a game and community by giving newcomers a chance to adapt.

Yes, the rules are subjective. But if you're concerned about a GM getting involved, then the GM should probably be involved. In other words, HTFU, GTFO, or a GM will make you.


Wait you are telling me to HTFU when you are all for newbies being invulnerable? Please.. Grow a pair and you HTFU.. I dont' scam nor kill newbies I'm just saying when you start putting restrictions in a game that should have very little to none it isn't the same game we all started playing.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
#100 - 2013-09-12 11:35:05 UTC
Grow a pair and don't pick on new players?

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.