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Big Brother Is Watching you

First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#61 - 2013-09-12 02:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
But, and i might be to optimistic here, i dont think CCP is looking to make new players "off limits" for griefing and similar


Then why does it say this?

Quote:
Pilots found to pursue activities against new players in other areas may be subject to further restrictions as deemed necessary by CCP Games Customer Support Team.


That pretty much says all I need to know about it.

Everyone saying "Oh, don't worry, I don't really think it will get abused", are you really serious? Like we don't hear about people petitioning things filling these forums already. Like the crybabies of EVE aren't already known across the internet for filing petitions about anything worse than a broken nail. [Edit: One further thing. EVE already also has a legendarily subjective and inconsistent GM rulings record(no offense here guys, that's just what the perception is).

Hell, what's worse, they don't even define what does or does not count as a "new player"! That muddies the waters, makes it even worse.

Quote:
Its a..difficult situation and i dont envy those who have to try and find a balance between the two that can work as intended without ruining the core idea of EVE (dark, hash, violent, your best friend is going to stab you in the back).


There already was a balance. Rookie systems are off limits. They have been for a while. The very reason it was confined to those system is precisely because there is no way to tell a truly new player from an alt.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#62 - 2013-09-12 03:03:58 UTC
I'll go ahead and send out another statement, to anyone who is "pro" the new change.

Stop looking at the intent, and think about what is actually being said, and how it might be used and abused.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#63 - 2013-09-12 03:23:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'll go ahead and send out another statement, to anyone who is "pro" the new change.

Stop looking at the intent, and think about what is actually being said, and how it might be used and abused.


The change simply reinforces that CCP has the right to terminate your account at any time for any reason. That has always been in the TOS.

You need to remember that EVE players are the worst community when it comes to gaming the rules. Any attempt to define "new player" is going to be met by griefers attempting to measure where the line is drawn. Thus the GMs are forced to make arbitrary and seemingly contradictory rulings in order to obfuscate "the line".

One simple workaround is to pick targets that are not obviously new players. Show that you actually have some skill, perhaps?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2013-09-12 03:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'll go ahead and send out another statement, to anyone who is "pro" the new change.

Stop looking at the intent, and think about what is actually being said, and how it might be used and abused.


The change simply reinforces that CCP has the right to terminate your account at any time for any reason. That has always been in the TOS.

You need to remember that EVE players are the worst community when it comes to gaming the rules. Any attempt to define "new player" is going to be met by griefers attempting to measure where the line is drawn. Thus the GMs are forced to make arbitrary and seemingly contradictory rulings in order to obfuscate "the line".

One simple workaround is to pick targets that are not obviously new players. Show that you actually have some skill, perhaps?


Or, I could actually be playing in an environment where I don't have to cautiously scan every single person for all the myriad of little telltale signs that they might not be noob. I shouldn't have to hold fire on the off chance that someone with a fat, juicy cargo might be an actual new player.

That's the part you need to remember. EVE players are the worst at gaming the rules. This one will be no exception. You think Goonswarm can't figure out a way to use this in their favor?

And ok, sure, let's not draw the line. That way, we can petition everything. New player loses a ship doing something stupid? Petition it. Bought a plex, got greedy, and lost it to a scam? Petition it. Caught in the crossfire of, you know, anything that happens in lowsec? Frag it, petition that too.

Got an enemy FC that you need out of the way? Arrange for him to take out some "newbies", petition that, get him suspended.

Gm Petition Online sure sounds fun, huh?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#65 - 2013-09-12 03:34:48 UTC
Reading up on this, I really think this is a case of an ISD poorly wording something on the wiki. If it were an actual change to rules, I suspect CCP would have published the change, much like the threadnaughts involving the latest TOS change.

I'll continue my policy of flying right through noob systems without stopping, while blasting miners in every other system I can.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#66 - 2013-09-12 03:36:31 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Reading up on this, I really think this is a case of an ISD poorly wording something on the wiki. If it were an actual change to rules, I suspect CCP would have published the change, much like the threadnaughts involving the latest TOS change.

I'll continue my policy of flying right through noob systems without stopping, while blasting miners in every other system I can.


Honestly? I hope you are right. Reading it, I sense that the same hand that gave us the "no lying" clause also was responsible for this. Because it's rather asinine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#67 - 2013-09-12 03:42:59 UTC
This is sad, it's the continued wussification of EVE online.

Litterally hundreds of thousands of us came into this game and stayed (and continue to do so today) without having to be hand-held outside of the start system. EVE's success has come from it's edgyness, it's danger, it's ability to evoke emotions in it's players via permanent loss and lack of total safey (outside of never undocking). Why people want to kill that is beyond my ability to imagine.
Vobard
Corporation 310527
#68 - 2013-09-12 04:21:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is sad, it's the continued wussification of EVE online.

Litterally hundreds of thousands of us came into this game and stayed (and continue to do so today) without having to be hand-held outside of the start system. EVE's success has come from it's edgyness, it's danger, it's ability to evoke emotions in it's players via permanent loss and lack of total safey (outside of never undocking). Why people want to kill that is beyond my ability to imagine.



Agreed, CCP is simply expanding the protected area for "new players" to the point where experienced players will exploit it for use with apies/alts/eyes and if you touch them it will be petitioned for warnings and or bans.

I am all for new players getting a chance but when the rules change to the point that older players can exploit this to their benefit then there is something wrong.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#69 - 2013-09-12 04:24:35 UTC
Vobard wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is sad, it's the continued wussification of EVE online.

Litterally hundreds of thousands of us came into this game and stayed (and continue to do so today) without having to be hand-held outside of the start system. EVE's success has come from it's edgyness, it's danger, it's ability to evoke emotions in it's players via permanent loss and lack of total safey (outside of never undocking). Why people want to kill that is beyond my ability to imagine.



Agreed, CCP is simply expanding the protected area for "new players" to the point where experienced players will exploit it for use with apies/alts/eyes and if you touch them it will be petitioned for warnings and or bans.

I am all for new players getting a chance but when the rules change to the point that older players can exploit this to their benefit then there is something wrong.


Malcanis' Law.

To paraphrase: Anything that is intended to help new players, will be used to the benefit of the older players to screw them over.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#70 - 2013-09-12 04:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gospadin
If you happen to be traveling within a jump of a newbie system, and you see someone flagged suspect, do you really check their history before shooting?

If you ship scan and see an officer fit ship AFK at a gate, you're not going to assemble a gank fleet to get a juicy killmail?

Seems like a bit overboard on the rule change.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-09-12 04:30:03 UTC
Wait...wait wait.....does this mean I can be banned for smashing and then podding a 4 day old toon that came into my w-space system that opened to a rookie system? How was I to know, CCP?!? I hadn't even jumped into the HS system yet!!!!

Don't ban me, bro!

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#72 - 2013-09-12 05:02:36 UTC
if CCP actually plans on these rules applying to other systems rather than starter systems then some of you above show lack of a grasp on reality with your statements above on how this really would work.

Who goes around checking on every pilots age? Who wants to bother? If I am going to do something netharious then my victim is usually picked because:

A. He/she is in the vicinity
B. He/she is falling for it
C. He she is in the vicinity
D. he/she is falling for it

This thought that it gives new players a chance and helps retain the player base is a bad argument because new players are still not easily identified.

if CCP wants to have a 30 day cocoon then I say make them HOT PINK on the overview and in local chat... LOL.... then tell us not to touch them. Also do not allow them to join any corporations - Because OH NOES! What if they join a corporation and are wardec'd? etc etc etc...

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#73 - 2013-09-12 05:11:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Reading up on this, I really think this is a case of an ISD poorly wording something on the wiki. If it were an actual change to rules, I suspect CCP would have published the change, much like the threadnaughts involving the latest TOS change.

I'll continue my policy of flying right through noob systems without stopping, while blasting miners in every other system I can.

Honestly? I hope you are right. Reading it, I sense that the same hand that gave us the "no lying" clause also was responsible for this. Because it's rather asinine.

It does indeed look like a similar MO.

Vague wording that can be massively expanded at will.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#74 - 2013-09-12 05:45:31 UTC
Of course, you are all running around screaming the sky is falling. The clause is intended to cover those douches who lie in wait along the SoE mission arc route with various traps & claim 'It's not against the rules'. The ones who spam a million duel requests, those guys. If you are just swanning around your WH system and you pop anyone who comes in, you will be fine. If the only person you hunt is the newbie who spoke in local asking 'Hey cool, is this a WH' while ignoring 20 others that day, then you might have some questions asked.
Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#75 - 2013-09-12 05:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
If a character less than 30 days old jumps into lowsec or nullsec and gets popped and then petitions the kill, I really dont think CCP will care.
People are blowing this out of proportion, and from what I am reading it's (suprise suprise) the people who grief new players "for the lulz" that are having the main issue with this new re-iteration of the rules.

This rule is quite clearly mainly for older players who will sit in hisec starting systems with their amazingly awesome pvp skills bashing characters and scamming the ones that are less than 30 days old.

The whole point of it including other systems is "if CCP deem it fit" that you are harassing a new player (aka constantly mailing them, or following them round just so you can kill them over and over again).

If you randomely kill a new player in lowsec or null thats fine. As is any other character over 30 days in hi, low or null. I dont see why people have to go around hisec killing players less than 30 days old anyway.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Lady Areola Fappington
#76 - 2013-09-12 06:06:09 UTC
To me, a newbie is someone still in the rookie chat. I'm of the opinion that they should be protected from the more egregious forms of tomfoolery we all get up to. Getting ganked, podkilled, scammed and such are part of the experience in EVE.

Now, stuff I'd "protect" newbies from would be like..attempts to intentionally deprive said newb of all of their assets, trying to get a noob to slot expensive implants/modules and such just to pop them, intentionally guiding them out to low into prepared gatecamps....and yes, much as I hate to say it, the infamous goonswarm recruitment scam.

Now, my definition of "protection" does not consist of punishing the perpetrator. For me, protection would be a one-time reimbursement of whatever they lost (within reason of course, anyone obviously losing a officer fit tengu stashed in a T1 indy is gaming) along with an extensive listing of different types of scams, and how to recognize them.

The best way to learn is by experiencing, and giving genuine new people a one-time mulligan to get some experience isn't THAT bad. Of course, there's potential "gaming the system" issues I haven't even considered, but, it's how I'd do things.



Please note, nothing in this post should be misconstrued as impersonating or falsely representing the following: Any other character on this account, any character on another account controlled by this player, characters on accounts owned by other players both real and imaginary, any group defined by game mechanics or ad hoc existing within or outside the EVE sphere of influence, GMs, Devs, CCP employees, CCP volunteers, CCP investors, CCP competition, future customers, current customers, lapsed customers, critics and fish.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-09-12 06:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
I can't believe this topic is still being posted in these forums.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Then why does it say this?

Quote:
Pilots found to pursue activities against new players in other areas may be subject to further restrictions as deemed necessary by CCP Games Customer Support Team.


That pretty much says all I need to know about it.

There already was a balance. Rookie systems are off limits. They have been for a while. The very reason it was confined to those system is precisely because there is no way to tell a truly new player from an alt.


The Level 1 Sisters Of Eve Epic Arc takes players through a lot of different systems. Way too many to include with the new player starter system list and some of those systems are heavily populated Mission / Trade Hubs..

The level 1 Epic Arc is mentioned and directed to new players after completing only one of the career agents. As such, there could be players just a few days old in these other areas which I believe is what CCP is referring to with that statement.

In other words, if characters 30 days and younger are constantly being ganked or scammed in those other areas, then CCP will more than likely include those areas to the list as well.

This thread reminds me of various other threads from the past.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100978

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=120647

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178502

One thing CCP has made abundantly clear over the years is they are new player friendly and as such, new players are off limits. If you can't get on board with that, then you best look for another game.


DMC
LTHenrich Lehmann
David Waylen Industries
#78 - 2013-09-12 06:34:12 UTC
+1 to CCP wanting to retain new players in game.

nuff said
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#79 - 2013-09-12 06:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Sisters of EVE Arc


And? Arnon is already on that list of off limits zones. Unless they're going to set all 20+ systems in that area off limits, it doesn't matter, nor should it.

Quote:
One thing CCP has made abundantly clear over the years is they are new player friendly and as such, new players are off limits. If you can't get on board with that, then you best look for another game.



Yeah, you know, if I actually like the harsh universe they lauded in all their advertising and stuff, I should just quit.

Oh, here's another thing.

I habitually put up lowball buy orders for a lot of the Sisters of EVE loot drops in and around Arnon. I guess I should be banned for, and I quote:

Quote:
Attempting to abuse a new player’s lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain


Because screw people who are properly prepared and do their homework, right?

[Edit:

That kind of crap is why people are pissed off about this broad brush rewording. Because stuff that people have been doing for years with a thumbs up from CCP could reasonably be argued is now bannable. Banning someone for "taking advantage" of people doing that arc (with lowball buy orders) is easily within the wording of that statement.

And that's the problem I have with it right there. The entire thing is one huge "moving the goal posts".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#80 - 2013-09-12 06:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
So, the New order needs disclaimers for their posts now? *giggles*

Ah well... I think protecting new players more is a good thing... big surprise, hu? Some people should get it into their thick skulls that EVE is a game, and CCP tries to make money of it... it's no private little treehouse, where the player's rules apply.... and if they deemed in necessary, they could rule that the whole of highsec is off limits (not that I'd like that to happen), and NO player could do a thing about it.

Ask 10 non EVE players what they thing about it? Nine of them would tell you that they did take a look at it once in past 10 years, but didn't like it because it was a complicated mess, more work then game, "spreadsheets in space", or something else along the lines...

...personally, I find that a pity, concidering how much more this game has to offer.

As a side note: CCP also has still a ways to go to make the game more appealing for a bigger audience... DUST clearly wasn't the right way to do that.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)