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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#901 - 2013-09-12 14:28:51 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
well, who can blame them? the way i see it there are only two valid courses of action:
1. hold their fingers still and hope that the whole thing blows over.

What do you think is happening right now

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#902 - 2013-09-12 14:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
GM Karidor wrote:
blah blah blah


So nobody ever again needs to actually check to see if someone is who they say they are? Now they can just cry to mummy and get her to fix their failure?

Wow, that's pathetic.


It's my damn job to make sure I'm talking to who I think I'm talking too, and if I'm foolish enought to just believe someone without evidence (namely having the character he's supposed to be get in contact), then it's my damn fault for being an idiot.

It's not that hard to avoid it, and it's only the greedy, lazy and foolish that get caught by this kind of stuff.


This is a major kick in the teeth for the universe being a harsh place. What's next?
If something is priced too high, you'll reverse the contract?
If someone lied about being friendly, are you going to start replacing ships?



I hope the CSM is on this like a ton of bricks. This is against what EVE stands for. A harsh place with no hand holding.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#903 - 2013-09-12 14:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Shade Millith wrote:
It's my damn job to make sure I'm talking to who I think I'm talking too, and if I'm foolish enought to just believe someone without evidence (namely having the character he's supposed to be get in contact), then it's my damn fault for being an idiot.

Yep, and you can get back whatever you lost and get that badguy banned if you know about the TOS mechanics.

It's a means to get revenge, not unlike ganking ... except you (well the gm) can deal the best form of punishment.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sol Kal'orr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#904 - 2013-09-12 14:39:39 UTC
I just received an eve-mail informing me of a new courier service. If the person who sent it doesn't represent this new service can I petition him?

If yes, fix this.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#905 - 2013-09-12 14:52:52 UTC
Sol Kal'orr wrote:
I just received an eve-mail informing me of a new courier service. If the person who sent it doesn't represent this new service can I petition him?

If yes, fix this.

They are intentionally misleading you. Misrepresenting, if you would

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#906 - 2013-09-12 14:57:23 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
It's my damn job to make sure I'm talking to who I think I'm talking too, and if I'm foolish enought to just believe someone without evidence (namely having the character he's supposed to be get in contact), then it's my damn fault for being an idiot.

Yep, and you can get back whatever you lost and get that badguy banned if you know about the TOS mechanics.

It's a means to get revenge, not unlike ganking ... except you (well the gm) can deal the best form of punishment.

One might say that learning about how to best make use of the eve online TOS and GM mechanics, you are able to do more to defend yourself and punish people to hurt you than someone who does not know.

In other words, it's like learning to fit a tank. Or the right way to make optimal use of your rack of blasters.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#907 - 2013-09-12 15:09:41 UTC
so It's a new day, can we get a dev to weigh in on how this change in specific enforceable tos clause relates to their vision of the game. cause ill be honest I hate mmo's and eve is the only one i can stand to play. if you are moving to get in line with the others and get rid of scamming and metagaming then im out and i think a very good chunk of people are with me.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#908 - 2013-09-12 15:10:50 UTC
Maybe we should go back to banning discussion of the TOS for being 'discussing moderation'. That was fun.

When are we getting a senior non-GM in this thread again to discuss this?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#909 - 2013-09-12 15:11:00 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
so It's a new day, can we get a dev to weigh in on how this change in specific enforceable tos clause relates to their vision of the game. cause ill be honest I hate mmo's and eve is the only one i can stand to play. if you are moving to get in line with the others and get rid of scamming and metagaming then im out and i think a very good chunk of people are with me.

Needs to be in a new thread, so this one can be locked and sent to the depths of the forums.

I think that CCP might prefer to forgot things like the humiliating CSM posts in this thread by that one person, you know what I mean

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#910 - 2013-09-12 15:13:52 UTC
Unlike the majority of guys in this thread, I'm not afraid of girls.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#911 - 2013-09-12 15:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Daniel Plain wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
3. Admitting a mistake, apologize and rolling back to the old TOS wording.

too late for that now. they told us repeatedly that "impersonation" is banned in other parts of the legal magic scrolls. the only reason most of us still have their accounts is that the people who are not smart enough to avoid scams are also not smart enough to file a petition.

Quote:
4. Using this community response to better reword the TOS.

which is essentially 2.)


Its never to late to go "Sorry guys we screwed up bad. We're reverting to the old TOS. We intended to prevent incidents like X from ever happening again but this wording is causing concerns. EVE is a massively complex game and it is hard to see all of the implications that a change will make. We respect our subscribers and want to keep a healthy atmosphere for EVE so we will revert the change and attempt to rework it in a way to do what we want but is more amiable to our community."

Its not hard.

E:

Seriously CCP La Nariz new community manager.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#912 - 2013-09-12 15:23:02 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
3. Admitting a mistake, apologize and rolling back to the old TOS wording.

too late for that now. they told us repeatedly that "impersonation" is banned in other parts of the legal magic scrolls. the only reason most of us still have their accounts is that the people who are not smart enough to avoid scams are also not smart enough to file a petition.

Quote:
4. Using this community response to better reword the TOS.

which is essentially 2.)


Its never to late to go "Sorry guys we screwed up bad. We're reverting to the old TOS. We intended to prevent incidents like X from ever happening again but this wording is causing concerns. EVE is a massively complex game and it is hard to see all of the implications that a change will make. We respect our subscribers and want to keep a healthy atmosphere for EVE so we will revert the change and attempt to rework it in a way to do what we want but is more amiable to our community."

Its not hard.



I don't mind if they just come out and say hey we want to stop "x" from happening, so give us a day or two to re word it and release it to the public for review. of course if "x" is scamming and meta game we have a whole nother issue.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#913 - 2013-09-12 15:23:51 UTC
Another evening has passed and still no word from either the CSM or CCP.

I can sort of understand why CCP's response might take some time. They had a reason for the change and also need to go through and not fubar the PR again like they did the first time. Though, I still don't understand why they just can't pull back to the previous TOS and have another pass at it to get it right. I also don't fully comprehend why deleting a single sentence, which end this discussion completely and clearly and takes literally seconds to do, appears to be harder than actual demolition work. That particular point has not been clarified at all by either CCP or the CSM.

But increasingly I am disturbed by the lack of response from the CSM. Are they still so shocked about this that they aren't able to respond? Are they embarrassed that this fairly large issue pretty much waltz right passed the CSM without bringing up any red flags, to anyone? Do they realize that as each day passes on this one issue that they hurt the value of the CSM as a whole if they don't say at least something?

I mean, there were multiple replies from the CSM on rebalancing concerns. There were multiple replies on all sorts of other minor issues that upset some people. But this? Why the silent treatment CSM? What are you guys doing as player advocates?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#914 - 2013-09-12 15:30:16 UTC
CCP has already responded several times. The last GM statement called it "the final word." Unless something new happens, I'm not expecting any further statement.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#915 - 2013-09-12 15:31:50 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
CCP has already responded several times. The last GM statement called it "the final word." Unless something new happens, I'm not expecting any further statement.



Your "final word" has your customer base furiously upset about it and that's a good way to leave it?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#916 - 2013-09-12 15:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
La Nariz wrote:

Its never to late to go "Sorry guys we screwed up bad. We're reverting to the old TOS. We intended to prevent incidents like X from ever happening again but this wording is causing concerns. EVE is a massively complex game and it is hard to see all of the implications that a change will make. We respect our subscribers and want to keep a healthy atmosphere for EVE so we will revert the change and attempt to rework it in a way to do what we want but is more amiable to our community."

Its not hard.

E:

Seriously CCP La Nariz new community manager.


Yep, something like this would calm the community down. Why they aren't doing this I have no idea.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2013-09-12 15:35:49 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
CCP has already responded several times. The last GM statement called it "the final word." Unless something new happens, I'm not expecting any further statement.



Your "final word" has your customer base furiously upset about it and that's a good way to leave it?


No its a terrible way. But seeing as how they handled "new jump animation makes me violently ill" (that thread is still going) by basically saying "sucks to be you, we'll look into a fix some day." Why would you expect anything different?

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Gavinvin1337
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#918 - 2013-09-12 15:36:27 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Another evening has passed and still no word from either the CSM or CCP.

I can sort of understand why CCP's response might take some time. They had a reason for the change and also need to go through and not fubar the PR again like they did the first time. Though, I still don't understand why they just can't pull back to the previous TOS and have another pass at it to get it right. I also don't fully comprehend why deleting a single sentence, which end this discussion completely and clearly and takes literally seconds to do, appears to be harder than actual demolition work. That particular point has not been clarified at all by either CCP or the CSM.

But increasingly I am disturbed by the lack of response from the CSM. Are they still so shocked about this that they aren't able to respond? Are they embarrassed that this fairly large issue pretty much waltz right passed the CSM without bringing up any red flags, to anyone? Do they realize that as each day passes on this one issue that they hurt the value of the CSM as a whole if they don't say at least something?

I mean, there were multiple replies from the CSM on rebalancing concerns. There were multiple replies on all sorts of other minor issues that upset some people. But this? Why the silent treatment CSM? What are you guys doing as player advocates?


I am inclined to agree with you, apart from Ali Aras (who seemed to be backing up the GM's stance) I have yet to see any other CSM comments here. It could be that anything to do with TOS changes is heavily NDA'ed and they are unable to say anything useful on the topic. If that was the case I would appreciate them telling us the reason they are silent is because of the NDA. Either that or CCP has gag ordered them until they can prepare a proper response.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#919 - 2013-09-12 15:37:52 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
It's my damn job to make sure I'm talking to who I think I'm talking too, and if I'm foolish enought to just believe someone without evidence (namely having the character he's supposed to be get in contact), then it's my damn fault for being an idiot.

Yep, and you can get back whatever you lost and get that badguy banned if you know about the TOS mechanics.

It's a means to get revenge, not unlike ganking ... except you (well the gm) can deal the best form of punishment.

One might say that learning about how to best make use of the eve online TOS and GM mechanics, you are able to do more to defend yourself and punish people to hurt you than someone who does not know.

In other words, it's like learning to fit a tank. Or the right way to make optimal use of your rack of blasters.

in yet other words, the old and new version of the ToS includes an EVE version of american 'stand your ground' laws: if someone pisses you off, you can shoot him dead and walk away.

sounds legit.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#920 - 2013-09-12 15:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Shinhwa
Daniel Plain wrote:

in yet other words, the old and new version of the ToS includes an EVE version of american 'stand your ground' laws: if someone pisses you off, you can shoot him dead and walk away.


As an American I can say that is a gross miss-characterization of "stand your ground" laws. Lots of people **** me off every day, and legally I'm not allowed to shoot them... oh.. but a man can dream.

As for other CSM members Ripard Teg has commented. He's not a fan. But the CSM are basically "players we listen to a bit more than the riff-raff" as far as CCP is concerned. Its not like they have the power, or any power, to make CCP do anything.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."