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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Dave stark
#581 - 2013-09-11 19:59:28 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i'll be honest i haven't massively been following this thread; does the ToS agree with the GMs posts yet?

nope now we have, "case by case basis" instead. so gm's can say screw what the tos says and do what they want.


so if i give the GMs 20% of all my scam revenue it's not against the ToS?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#582 - 2013-09-11 19:59:55 UTC
Amenio wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Copypasta wrote:
Can we petition to CCP to dismiss CSM members for gross incompetence and inability to communicate? Or at the very least force them to take courses in public relations?

I think CSM could be a much better flameshield for CCP.

As it is, they're adding fuel to the blaze

I have some problem on seeing how you could say anything to defend this change without the words function as fuel.

Well then maybe they shouldn't try so openly to sell us this new ccp "clarification"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Copypasta
Lottie Spider Hive
#583 - 2013-09-11 20:01:02 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done.


How do you get into the CSM while evidently living under a rock?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#584 - 2013-09-11 20:01:18 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
The fact that we work primarily under NDA and outside of the public eye can make it hard to see, especially when our efforts avert a crisis instead of responding to one.

National Security

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#585 - 2013-09-11 20:02:03 UTC
Copypasta wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done.

How do you get into the CSM while evidently living under a rock?

Well, when a bunch of dumb pubbies love one another very much

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Copypasta
Lottie Spider Hive
#586 - 2013-09-11 20:02:20 UTC
Also my previous point still stands: Ali Aras, you are really, really bad at PR. Please stop.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#587 - 2013-09-11 20:02:21 UTC
I'll add my voice to the displeasure in the risk of getting in trouble for "impersonating" my own alts. I have two chars on two accounts who are basically interchangeable, and are used as a single entity (an extension of myself) depending on the needs that come up.

Considering that one of them is PvP-oriented, and the other is an industry char, and I don't want to dilute (nor take the time to dilute) a single char, I have neither the desire, nor the intention, of using them as separate entities. These two chars, Winter Archipelago and Summer Isle (oops, please don't ban me, CCP), are extensions of myself as I exist in the universe that is New Eden, and to treat them separately when they are simply two facets of myself is silly, at best.

I have no intentions of following this part of the TOS, and if that ends up leading to my own punishment, so be it: EvE is a game, and a game is meant to be fun. Having to treat my two chars as separate entities would, for me, defeat that purpose.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Tak149
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#588 - 2013-09-11 20:03:14 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Vatek wrote:

So we should just not discuss it at all and trust the CSM to read our minds? I wasn't aware that using a forum intended for discussion about the game to discuss the game was "ineffective rioting". Last I heard, rioting worked pretty well to reverse the Incarna trainwreck!

Brushing us off with "okay we're gonna yap with CCP about this and release a crappy devblog 2 months from now that doesn't actually address anything" sucks.

Productive posting is fine and great. I use it as a CSM member to distill into better feedback; you're right that I don't read any minds. I also receive substantial assistance in representation via private messages such as evemails. I do also *play* the game, and have been both perpetrator and victim of the types of scams covered under this update. The bit about rioting in this thread was to attempt to dissuade people from making 100x posts saying "this is bad ccp sux see the csm agrees"; contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done.


So... I'm gonna call bullshit and quote another CSM Rep.

"Here's a little secret: the CSM's influence is cut by about half to two-thirds when there's no player revolution behind it."
-http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/09/ugly-babies.html
Copypasta
Lottie Spider Hive
#589 - 2013-09-11 20:03:27 UTC
This is not meant as an insult. No one is born a PR wizard. It is a complex skill that requires a lot of effort to master.

You do not have this skill. You have none of it. Ali Aras, please put that keyboard down this can only end in tears
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#590 - 2013-09-11 20:04:26 UTC
"contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done."

My sides are in orbit
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#591 - 2013-09-11 20:04:53 UTC
Copypasta wrote:
Also my previous point still stands: Ali Aras, you are really, really bad at PR. Please stop.

No, by all means, continue.

If ccp and their wannabes learn to just leave things until players forget we'd have all sorts of trouble

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#592 - 2013-09-11 20:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Doris Dents
Ali Aras wrote:

contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done.

Do you even EVE bro? Large public outcry is the only thing that ever works with CCP. Every time there's rabble rabble CCP first locks every thread trying to sweep it under the rug, then makes a few tepid statements that largely dodge the issue then after anger grows and the press start taking an interest they finally address the issue fully and openly. See t20, monoclegate etc
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#593 - 2013-09-11 20:05:53 UTC
Copypasta wrote:
This is not meant as an insult. No one is born a PR wizard. It is a complex skill that requires a lot of effort to master.

You do not have this skill. You have none of it. Ali Aras, please put that keyboard down this can only end in tears

No, even though it's making the situation worse, it will lead to a better outcome for the game than allowing this to be rammed up our proverbial rear, stealthily or not

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tak149
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#594 - 2013-09-11 20:06:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Copypasta wrote:
Also my previous point still stands: Ali Aras, you are really, really bad at PR. Please stop.

No, by all means, continue.

If ccp and their wannabes learn to just leave things until players forget we'd have all sorts of trouble


Half of me wants him to stop. And half of me can't stop laughing.
muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#595 - 2013-09-11 20:06:38 UTC
That feel when you get banned with an alt because you said your main was your main and scammed someone with the alt.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2013-09-11 20:07:12 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i'll be honest i haven't massively been following this thread; does the ToS agree with the GMs posts yet?



They are still having "internal discussions" about it.


i don't know what i was expecting, really.



2 months, if going by the general consensus.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#597 - 2013-09-11 20:08:40 UTC
"All the story, all the political intrigue, all the drama that goes on the in-game gets people intrigued. EVE is often described as the game you love to read about because EVE as a core gameplay experience is very particular, it's not for everyone. The people who like it, they love it. It's not made for everyone and we're not going to change that"

https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/976-the-mittani-sends-his-regards-disbanding-band-of-brothers
Specifically:
"...we could individually kick out every single corporation from Band of Brothers, shut down the alliance, and then immediately create a new corporation called ‘Band of Brothers’ ourselves, not merely annihilating Band of Brothers but literally stealing their name forever. Absolute devastation."

https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/830-operation-deliverance-how-capsuleers-conquered-providence-for-the-amarr-empire
Specifically:
" No longer was it satisfied in merely policing low-sec space - it had a new objective - one which was much more challenging - the reclamation of the 0.0 space for the Amarrian Empire"
"...combined with an effort to take control of the border systems on behalf of the Empire."
"...CVA now termed 'Holy Amarrian Providence'. Many of these groups would subsequently develop relations with the CVA and become partners in the development of Amarrian Providence."

Etc...
Frankly any of the stories on there that feature people mentioning alts, deceiving about who they are, or presenting themselves as NPCs point out the ridiculousness of this *CHANGE* in the ToS.

I'm sure if I wanted to waste an entire day of my life I could scour through every CCP press release mentioning any of the big stories involving scams, etc.. and grab some ultimately damning thing- but really it's pointless as CCP refuses to even acknowledge that this is, indeed, a change in the ToS.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#598 - 2013-09-11 20:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Ali Aras wrote:
Vatek wrote:

So we should just not discuss it at all and trust the CSM to read our minds? I wasn't aware that using a forum intended for discussion about the game to discuss the game was "ineffective rioting". Last I heard, rioting worked pretty well to reverse the Incarna trainwreck!

Brushing us off with "okay we're gonna yap with CCP about this and release a crappy devblog 2 months from now that doesn't actually address anything" sucks.

Productive posting is fine and great. I use it as a CSM member to distill into better feedback; you're right that I don't read any minds. I also receive substantial assistance in representation via private messages such as evemails. I do also *play* the game, and have been both perpetrator and victim of the types of scams covered under this update. The bit about rioting in this thread was to attempt to dissuade people from making 100x posts saying "this is bad ccp sux see the csm agrees"; contrary to popular belief, large public outcry is largely ineffective in getting anything done.

I was unaware that posting acknowledging concerns and promising to use the tools at my disposal to work to resolve them constituted a "brush-off". I meant what I said when I said that I'd seen a lot of good come out of the CSM process, more than just "a devblog once in a while". The fact that we work primarily under NDA and outside of the public eye can make it hard to see, especially when our efforts avert a crisis instead of responding to one.


Will you be pushing for a removal of this new clause then? Let's look beyond the obvious stupidity of "saying you are your own alt is punishable even if it's true" and look at the deeper damage to the metagame here.

If you have participated in and been a victim of these types of scams, then you are obviously aware of how misrepresentation and deception plays a huge part in the metagame. You bring up the example of a TEST pilot passing himself off as a GSF recruiter, so I'm going to ask the question: if that TEST pilot is actually able to convince somebody that he is a GSF recruiter, why should that be punishable?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#599 - 2013-09-11 20:09:15 UTC
Tak149 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Copypasta wrote:
Also my previous point still stands: Ali Aras, you are really, really bad at PR. Please stop.

No, by all means, continue.

If ccp and their wannabes learn to just leave things until players forget we'd have all sorts of trouble

Half of me wants him to stop. And half of me can't stop laughing.

Which half is impersonating being you

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#600 - 2013-09-11 20:09:42 UTC
Hi can i get a loan from someone? My main character is Mordeth Aridhol please message me on there to get your money back.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"