Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think what the OP is proposing is that if you want max damage and application, you'd take a T2 instead. But if you wanted *good* damage and application, while having all the other good stuff like local rep bonus, interdiction nullifier etc then you'd choose a T3.

So there would be an element of tradeoff in the decision making.

At the moment, there is no decision to make - T3 damage beats T2 hands down, as does local rep amount and/or total EHP.

I do a lot of WH pvp, where T3s are the norm - actually they are pretty much the only fleets you see. This is because they are simply better at fighting than anything else.

Money is not really a limiting factor for WH pilots so they tend to choose the best tool for the job. If everyone's choosing T3 every time it tells a story - there is no balance of tradeoffs.

This makes the game (in my view) less interesting.

In principle I support the OP.

I also agree that there is currently only one choice in offensive subsystem at the moment - that's not right. 800dps at range is too much for a tengu, as is 1000dps for a proteus. 600 and 800 would be more reasonable.

500k ehp on a proteus is ridiculous, 2k/s active tengu tanks are also ridiculous.

Yes, I am a T3 user. I'd rather have more versatile, less OP T3s. It will make a better, more interesting game.

Someone gets it. :D

This isn't to say that without rigs you won't see attempts at bricking, rocketing or otherwise extreme DPS attempts - but these will all come at a price (and you won't be able to do one without drastically affecting everything else).

Use your imagination... Capacitor regeneration and armor subsystems, a couple of 1600mm armor, some energized adaptive nano hardeners, three armor pump rigs and a full set of slave implants.

Nope, not anymore

Fit for gank Hac = >>>> T3 now

Fit for tank new HACs capacitor sustainability is quite impressive and despite lesser EHP numbers once all thingies factored 80K EHP + for a T2 cruiser hitting like a brutish and having way better incoming dmg mitigation because mwd bonus *cough*

Hacs are now also faster.

Now if we start comparing 3billion T3 fits with T2 HAC fits... it's the only argument that keeps me flying them, their resist profile coupled with 3rd rig and exponential benefits from every single upgrade, but now there's nothing I can do with any of my T3's I can't just do better and cheaper with T2 hacs and this is good, my wallet appreciates.
Once those T3's in my hangar go pouf I have no good reason to buy another one. Just try it out to make a kitting HAM Cerberus and tell me how much dps you get out of it and at which speeds -you know like the HM 100mn GU everyone cries rivers of tears about, even GMs

Is it possible that with the all of rebalancing to command ships and HACs, strategic cruisers are less in need of a massive overhaul? I still like the idea of simply eliminating rigs and buffing some of the underpowered offensive subsystems.

As requested. Here is a tengu fit that's cap stable, pvp capable and self reps for 1953dps without crystals, 3000 with crystals. No overheated necessary, no gang links and no drugs.

I'm not saying it's the best fit. I am sure there are other better ones. The use of gist shield modules as you know is to make it cap-efficient.

This one will cost about 2Bn to put together. For the record, I don't have a problem with fits that can tank this much while being pvp-capable (a hyperion can do it too, if you spend 4Bn isk). But I do have a problem with a ship being:

* cap stable
* mobile
* able to project full dps
* and able to tank more than any single ship can possibly deal out (ignore dreads, they can't hit it).

I think it's an overpowered pvp, pve, pwn-everything-unless-it's-a-dedicated-anti-t3-fleet ship. I'm sure it's fun to fly - for about 5 minutes. I just don't think it adds anything to the game of eve that this kind of fit is possible.

Note: there is no Tech-2 equivalent of this fit - the cerberus does not have the powergrid for the x-large shield booster, lacks a slot for the shield boost amplifier + hardeners + tackle + prop - and cannot be made cap stable even with a gist xl.

Fit:

[Tengu, permatank]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Damage Control II

Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
10MN Afterburner II
Domination Warp Disruptor

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate


EDIT: updated tank numbers with post-odyssy 1.1 numbers.

How many cost less than a carrier?

Two billion? That X-type X-large was 1.2-1.6 billion this morning, those CN invuln run 400(ish) as of last week.

So again, how many OP is that they cost less more than a rigged archon?

For the 5% of people that live in holes suref or the rest of us that is a significant investment.


So for that I can spend 300 mil at most for a cerb and have everything but the x-large booster, and I don't care about that because 9/10 times I'll be flying with logi.

And that abomination would be hard pressed against a curse, cap it out and all of that rep rate does nothing for you, and with only one rig you get what 40ish km out of hams?

Easy.

EDIT: correction, cerberus has 6 HAMs. My figures were otherwise correct.



I'm afraid you are mistaken.

tengu with 6 HAMs and 3 ballistics : 836dps to range 25.2km, 58.3k unheated EHP, target painter (or even web!)
cerberus with 6 HAMs and 3 ballistics: 696dps to range 37.9km, 33.7h unheated EHP

overheated, these numbers are:
tengu: 983dps, 67.2k ehp
cerberus: 819dps, 38.3k ehp

The tengu is still the better gank ship by 20% while enjoying 175% of the EHP - this is before the ability to overheat for 30% longer than the cerberus. If you take this into account the disparity grows.

The loki is out-damaged by the vagabond, but its ability to do respectable dps while webbing at range and enjoying a huge buffer tank easily make it a better choice in most engagements.

The legion I have less experience with. I'll leave it to others to make informed arguments there.

Examples:
[Tengu, t3-cerberus]

Ballistic Control System II x3
Power Diagnostic System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Target Painter II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile x6

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate

Cerberus:
[Cerberus, gank]

Ballistic Control System II x3
Damage Control II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile x6

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II