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The Future of T3 Cruisers
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Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#321 - 2013-12-14 16:09:12 UTC
Well I'll put more thought into it when the actual t3 balancing thread comes around but I would be tempted to just let Tech 3 ships refit and swap sub systems without the use of a deport.

If they do remove rigs though, subsystems and slot layouts would need a major rework imo.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#322 - 2013-12-14 17:09:10 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Well I'll put more thought into it when the actual t3 balancing thread comes around but I would be tempted to just let Tech 3 ships refit and swap sub systems without the use of a deport.

If they do remove rigs though, subsystems and slot layouts would need a major rework imo.


I am opposed to removing rigs, because then they would have to nerf T3's to keep them from being too powerful. If I can fly through space with complete impunity, then refit to a very powerful combat fit, then switch back with ease to my travel fit, then much of the risk is removed.

All ships in Eve hover on a very thin line between totally useless and balanced (or spend eternities on one side or the other of the line).

I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2013-12-14 17:14:09 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2013-12-14 18:33:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.


how many ehp does a super ehp cruiser have? I would argue that 70k is super ehp for a cruiser, normal for a battle cruiser.

All T3 can get much more than. 70k ehp with a max dps fit.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2013-12-14 18:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.


how many ehp does a super ehp cruiser have? I would argue that 70k is super ehp for a cruiser, normal for a battle cruiser.

All T3 can get much more than. 70k ehp with a max dps fit.



My 110k Ehp prophesy......just maybe

...and for a billion isk, 70k eHP is fine I can do more with a myrm
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2013-12-14 19:08:13 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.


how many ehp does a super ehp cruiser have? I would argue that 70k is super ehp for a cruiser, normal for a battle cruiser.

All T3 can get much more than. 70k ehp with a max dps fit.



My 110k Ehp prophesy......just maybe

...and for a billion isk, 70k eHP is fine I can do more with a myrm


A 1000dps proteus with 137k ehp will cost you 450 million (you can do it with T1 rigs and T2 modules). Plus it has one of:
battleship sensor strength or,
bonused scram range

plus it has, one of:
almost capless MWD use or,
small sig radius while using MWD or,
bonus to warp speed.

plus it has:
bonus to blaster range (this is really important in a brawl)

With all of that, it would still be worth the money with 70k EHP (20k more than the strongest best DPS HAC - the sacrilege).

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2013-12-14 19:50:38 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


I'd like to see the T3's gain some more functionality in specialized fits (e.g. the Legion being able to do some of the things that a Tengu can do, but lose some of the super EHP fits). What I do not want to see is to see them turn into Swiss Army knives, because Swiss Army knives suck at everything.



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.


how many ehp does a super ehp cruiser have? I would argue that 70k is super ehp for a cruiser, normal for a battle cruiser.

All T3 can get much more than. 70k ehp with a max dps fit.



My 110k Ehp prophesy......just maybe

...and for a billion isk, 70k eHP is fine I can do more with a myrm


A 1000dps proteus with 137k ehp will cost you 450 million (you can do it with T1 rigs and T2 modules). Plus it has one of:
battleship sensor strength or,
bonused scram range

plus it has, one of:
almost capless MWD use or,
small sig radius while using MWD or,
bonus to warp speed.

plus it has:
bonus to blaster range (this is really important in a brawl)

With all of that, it would still be worth the money with 70k EHP (20k more than the strongest best DPS HAC - the sacrilege).



Good it costs twice as much.

....and that 1000DPS is only at sneeze range, range bonuses or not its STILL medium neutrons, you need null to hit at point range and you aren't doing close to 1000DPS there.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2013-12-14 20:24:23 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:



Most super eHP fits have like 0 damage i.e. drone triggers proteus, fleet webber lokis, fleet pointers or whatnot.

Yeah they have huge ass tanks, and if they have guns at all they are just there to plink at drones.

My hunter proteus has a whopping two civilan rails on it, just because empty highs annoy me.


how many ehp does a super ehp cruiser have? I would argue that 70k is super ehp for a cruiser, normal for a battle cruiser.

All T3 can get much more than. 70k ehp with a max dps fit.



My 110k Ehp prophesy......just maybe

...and for a billion isk, 70k eHP is fine I can do more with a myrm


A 1000dps proteus with 137k ehp will cost you 450 million (you can do it with T1 rigs and T2 modules). Plus it has one of:
battleship sensor strength or,
bonused scram range

plus it has, one of:
almost capless MWD use or,
small sig radius while using MWD or,
bonus to warp speed.

plus it has:
bonus to blaster range (this is really important in a brawl)

With all of that, it would still be worth the money with 70k EHP (20k more than the strongest best DPS HAC - the sacrilege).


Good it costs twice as much.

....and that 1000DPS is only at sneeze range, range bonuses or not its STILL medium neutrons, you need null to hit at point range and you aren't doing close to 1000DPS there.


We're not here to discuss the shortcomings of neutron blasters. All blaster ships operate only at point blank range (where they excel).

With NULL, this ship achieves 762dps at the edge of scram range.

If you're operating hybrids at disruptor range then by all means take a deimos with 200mm railguns (or a tengu). But then it's not a brawler, it's a kiting ship.

I agree that the proteus is not a good kiting ship. It's actually the most pigeonholed of all the T3s. But at brawling in a squad, taking into account logistics etc, it outperforms every other gallente option. The only blaster ship I'd take in preference would be a vindicator, because of 400% strength webs.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2013-12-14 21:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

A 1000dps proteus with 137k ehp will cost you 450 million (you can do it with T1 rigs and T2 modules).


Can you post this fit?

I'm pretty sure that with a 1000dps proteus, you can't get that high of a tank just using t1/non-faction mods and rigs. You'll be spending way more than 400 mil to get dps and a tank like that. You can make a cerberus with a 114k ehp and a sacrilege 150k ehp. I think that is more than enough.

Also, it sounds like you haven't looked at the stats on HACs for a while. For example, they have better sensor strength than the standard T3 now.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#330 - 2013-12-15 13:06:02 UTC
Kalel Nimrott wrote:
I like them to keep the tank. Dps could vary, perhaps lowering it but giving them a plus on application. Remove rigs, adjust subsytems to compensate. Dont touch ewar on t3, they are fine.

Basically can do what t2 do, only a little worse with more tank, and more veratilitie. From jamgu to hamgu to railgu only by swapping mods and subs.


Edit: also, they get more benefits from shiny mods than a T2. This could means that the more isk that you throw at it th more benefits.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#331 - 2013-12-15 14:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyMagic Thiesant
Rek Seven wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

A 1000dps proteus with 137k ehp will cost you 450 million (you can do it with T1 rigs and T2 modules).


Can you post this fit?

I'm pretty sure that with a 1000dps proteus, you can't get that high of a tank just using t1/non-faction mods and rigs. You'll be spending way more than 400 mil to get dps and a tank like that. You can make a cerberus with a 114k ehp and a sacrilege 150k ehp. I think that is more than enough.



augmented, friction extension, powercore, hybrid, localised/wake
1600, 2 enam, 3 magstab, explosive hardener
mwd/scam/web
neutrons
triple trimark
hammerheads

implants: 5% damage, 3% rof, 3% armour (20m each?)


That's 1050dps and 140k ehp for 475m. Or you can go electrons and twin-1600 to get 950dps + 175k ehp. I'm sure someone else can come up with better fits too.

Was curious to see how it fitted with the other Gallente blasterboats: A 260m Brutix Navy fit comes in at around about 1000dps + 100k ehp (much larger sig, no point range extender, cap problems if mwding around a lot, but an extra mid and a utility high). A 325m Astarte with 2 utility highs has a few more options: 900dps and 145k ehp, or 1000dps and 125k ehp, or 1250dps and 90k ehp, or 1400dps and 75k.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2013-12-15 15:25:14 UTC
actually with that single plate fit you get 90k ehp and with the double you get 150k ehp and around 700 dps. That seems reasonable to me considering the additional isk involved and the risk of losing skill points.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#333 - 2013-12-15 15:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyMagic Thiesant
Oops, missed that he said t1 rigs. Three x t2 trimarks is only another 50m though - guess it depends how often you plan to die :-)

Even with t1 rigs, and without the (cheap) implants I used, that's still 1000dps and 120k ehp.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2013-12-15 15:56:13 UTC
it's 90k ehp with t2 rigs. You must be looking at uniform damage on eft.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...