Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The ship rebalance programme is progressing very nicely, and soon will be at the point where Fozzie et al are reviewing the Tech 3 Cruisers.

There are aspects of the T3's that need serious attention, in both buffing and nerfing
Both aspects, I believe, are required.

I am only going to address the Tengu in all of it's various roles, but the data presented will apply equally to the other 3 factions and as such does not need to be included, which keeps the post shorter.

The Role of a T3 Cruiser
CCP's original intent was for it to be versatile, able to assume to many different roles but specialising in none.
Currently the T3 cruiser fails in that role.
It cannot effectively and easily swap roles without additional pre-rigged base hulls for that different role.
It outperforms many of the specialised T2 hulls in that particular role.




Tengu Roles & T1/T2/T3 Progression
A Tengu is defined by the subsystems fitted to it. There should be a clear progression when compared to other base hulls in the game, which I will ouline below.

The Tengu can utilise roles from 3 hull classes, Frigate, Cruiser & Battlecruiser

Exploration & Scouting:
Heron -> Tengu -> Buzzard

Combat:
Caracal -> Tengu -> Cerberus
Moa -> Tengu -> Eagle

E-War:
Blackbird -> Tengu -> Falcon

Logistics:
Osprey -> Tengu -> Basilisk

Fleet Command:
Drake -> Tengu -> Nighthawk
Ferox -> Tengu -> Vulture

The nerf's
The above shows where the Tengu currently needs to be re-evaluated
e.g. In the Combat Role, it should perform better than the Caracal & Moa, but both the Cerberus & Eagle should outperform it
this would allow pilots of the specialised T2 classes to shine more in their chosen roles
many subsystems need to have their bonus % rates lowered
1% or 3% instead of 5%, 3% or 5% instead of 7.5%, 5% or 7.5% instead of 10%
this should see a more balanced performance from T3 pilots compared to their T1 & T2 counterparts.

The Buff's
For the multirole non-specialisation role to work, T3 Cruisers MUST be able to change rigging options in the same way that subsystems can swapped around.

The best One way around this would be to introduce a new line of T3 (T3 hull only) rigs at the same time as the subsystem bonus' are adjusted downwards in the rebalance pass (when they receive it).

I would remove rigs from T3's altogether its much simpler and saves isk.. T3's should be all about the subs not rigs

- reduce base hull cost
- make subs cheap 2mil a sub
- remove rigs completely .. more isk saved and increased versatility
- navy tank including T1 resists
- able to perform up-to 3 roles from sub combos less effectively than T2 ships
- remove interdiction nullifier .. should only be able to do what T1/T2 can do
- add new subs/ maybe a new category so 6 systems perhaps
- remove skillpoint penalty on ship loss and increase training time

What? Of course they can. Prices aren't random, they're functions of highly predictable factors. If CCP were to make subsystems drop from rats in hisec belts their price would plummet really, really fast.

CCP cannot wave a magic wand and specify an exact price point but they can easily make changes which will in turn bring down the cost... If they wanted to (not to say it's a good idea)

T3 are perfectly fine as they are right now.

Yet another thread that makes it clear why the players cannot be trusted when it comes to game balance.

The devs are far from perfect but I will take their decisions over bias players ANY DAY.

Pretty much this.

Once out of high sec and pimp fits to kill pve fit war targets things get different, a lot different. T3s are currently excellent support ships, and by support it's not because of the amounts of dps they push but because of their survivability.
HACs dish far more dmg, are faster, have an excellent bonus to mitigate incoming dmg and thx to new improved HACs push more than decent amounts of EHP once every fleet bonus factored.

Non the less, each of these T3's have a huge target on their back on top of some very important weaknesses: they're all extremely cap dependent to keep most of their tank and utility/dps running. Once you get in range and neut them they just die like any HAC but prettier.

Before getting in to any further changes data is required to see how new HACs changed/impact T3s abilities from solo small/gang work to large fleets.
Imho if 100mn AB setups are still way out of whack in solo/small gang for fleets it was already something you really didn't wanted (or maybe some dude with a snowflake fit) -this can be easily fix by simply adding in the hull some variable without touching whatever sub or hull itself.

If something I'd like to see them loose completely command sub for a simple reason: comand ships require a fuckton of skills and dedication, compared to them T3's are quite easy to train just as easy as it is to get in to hacs lvl4 at least.

Logi sub is a bit "under the weather" but doesn't need to be as strong as a regular logi in terms of range, just be able to fit more reps and have cap adjustments. -all T3's need a good take a look at this sub

Cover sub is a bit weak, needs more dmg to make them real Uboats - Legion/Tengu/Loki/Proteus all need this sub to be look at and balanced in between them.

Dps sub, this is where things get a bit hard to discuss, right now T3s got relegated in a good spot thx to HACs changes.

All ships need a good take a look at these subs and a good balance in between them, not with T2 ones.
Prot drones dedicated sub is quite garbage, Legion Laser/hams need love, Tengu hybrid sub is total garbage, loki arty one is a bit "meh"

So much to say about these ships because they're all fantastic ships to fly, not exactly the best at something like many pretend they are but the best compromise for many gamers in between cost/performance/abilities, any change to these ships from now on will either relegate them to hangar queens or keep current status, once again, after HAC changes brought them to their right spot.

That is exactly right.

Different price range per usefulness is a justifiable reason for a stronger/weaker ship in general.
And cerberus is useful in pvp now from what I gathered.
It wasn't before though.

Oh and MUST I stress the point where you lose 4 days of training when you die in a t3, that is absolutely not negligible.

Better make them free because they wold be totally useless with the resist profile

Remember the Devposts back at the beginning of the rebalance process
where a dev stated the intention to nerf all t3's into oblivion
my thoughts are nowhere near as bad as oblivion


I fly a T3 in more than 1 place
but yes, the most common place for them is highsec & L4 mission running
and the reason for that is entirely due to an overly powerful combination of subs

part of the tengu problem is the rail-gu .. which even with the recent medium hybrid buff might still be infact the fail-gu
those 2 separate subsystems need changing
the missile subsystem needs nerfing as it's far too strong
the hybrid subsystem needs buffing until it's a viable alternative

the proteus is generally assembled as a blaster boat
its drone-boat option isn't afaik very popular, but if you give it 125m3 of bandwidth then its treading on the Ishtar's toes too closely


and as far as im aware, all 4 T3's have their ugly duckling subs that barely ever see the light of day

meh... just another stupid topic about tengu(mainly) where half of ppl who never been in 0.0 and suggesting something and other that only seen it but didn't fly
for now with command buff to use t3 is not rational , as logi t3 most popular on AT. ewar tengu ? wut? just post how many have you seen. i was lucky and my count is 2
for smarties a have a task. fit as proposed "linked logi ewar tengu" . and post fit.
PS players proposals for changes of T3 gets boring