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Eve Miners Guide to the New Order of Highsec (A.K.A. James 315 and his gang), Part 1
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Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#161 - 2013-09-10 21:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
ashley Eoner wrote:
Then you would just need a few more alts or use a better ship.

A heavily tanked skiff still has less EHP then most battleships used in incursions and yet people still gank them.
Again, true, but if it's as hard to gank a barge as it is to gank a mission runner, well, the relative numbers of barge ganks are going to drop considerably. Which is my point.


Quote:
I'm tired of the stupidity that has been exhibited here. THe gross generalization of miners and the attempt at propagating a myth that the only reason people gank miners is because they NEVER EVER have a tank....
Speaking about yourself, much? I NEVER gank miners who are tanked. And I know others - more than a few - who do the same. In my case, because miners who tank are not the people who irritate me.

Quote:
If the gankers had any real skill and weren't so lazy they would be out there making big isk off mission runners and such. People who are notorious for running the smallest tank possible..
Ah! The ol' "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Roll
I gank miners because they're generally the noisiest whiners in the game. Especially so, the untanked ones. I am ALSO a lazy and inefficiant ganker. Which really has no bearing on my target chioces - it's an unrelated fact. Besides which, I don't worry about ISK - My measure of success in EVE has nothing to do with my wallet, except in as much as I'm able to do whatever pleases me without any real effort. Which I can. Let some someone else grind out the mission runners, if it so pleases them. I gank untanked barges because it pleases me to so do.
ashley Eoner
#162 - 2013-09-10 21:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Plastic Psycho wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Then you would just need a few more alts or use a better ship.

A heavily tanked skiff still has less EHP then most battleships used in incursions and yet people still gank them.
Again, true, but if it's as hard to gank a barge as it is to gank a mission runner, well, the relative numbers of barge ganks are going to drop considerably. Which is my point.


Quote:
I'm tired of the stupidity that has been exhibited here. THe gross generalization of miners and the attempt at propagating a myth that the only reason people gank miners is because they NEVER EVER have a tank....
Speaking about yourself, much? I NEVER gank miners who are tanked. And I know others - more than a few - who do the same. In my case, because miners who tank are not the people who irritate me.

Quote:
If the gankers had any real skill and weren't so lazy they would be out there making big isk off mission runners and such. People who are notorious for running the smallest tank possible..
Ah! The ol' "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Roll
I gank miners because they're generally the noisiest whiners in the game. Especially so, the untanked ones. I am ALSO a lazy and inefficiant ganker. Which really has no bearing on my target chioces - it's an unrelated fact. Besides which, I don't worry about ISK - My measure of success in EVE has nothing to do with my wallet, except in as much as I'm able to do whatever pleases me without any real effort. Which I can. Let some someone else grind out the mission runners, if it so pleases them. I gank untanked barges because it pleases me to so do.
Well at least you're honest which is refreshing. I will admit I am envious of how easy it is for you to amuse yourself.


EDIT : I missed the little jab at me. I run tanks on all my miners and I mined through every hulkageddon without losing a single barge/exhumer. I have gotten to watch many failed gank attempts though over the years. The most amusing of the fails are those committed by the same ganker over and over...

The Orca has always ran a big tank with at least a shield harmonizer (lets be frank in that the capacitor and range mining links are meh)..


I have seen only one ganker who didn't gank tanked ships and while I cannot remember the name off the top of my head it was something to the effect of botslayer goblin.

EDIT 2 : I actually miss Hulkageddon because the mineral fields were always plumper during the event :(
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#163 - 2013-09-10 22:36:35 UTC
Quote:
Yes, you don't get it. Because you are obviously not the type to get upset at over the internet social interaction. Not everyone is like you however. There are all types that play this game.


I would argue that, regardless of the person behind the screen, the actions against their character remain relevant as being against their character. I mean, the New Order RPs pretty hard, so are they just supposed to ignore people who don't? Hardly.

They are acting in accordance with their in game beliefs. And what's more, they are sincere in doing so. Which is more than can be said for their victims, who frequently violate the terms of service with what could easily be argued is verbal abuse.


Quote:
You are obviously smart enough to understand that you do cause some people quite a bit of upset, and you guys respond to that by furthering it.


And? So, what, are we supposed to just adjudicate based on hurt feelings? Statistically, how likely is it that anyone you meet in EVE truly cares about your feelings? On the internet in general, even?

We're all adults here (theoretically). And as (theoretical) adults, we should be grown up enough to separate the game from reality. Those who fail to do this will not and should not receive special treatment as a result of their failure to adjust.

Quote:
And honestly if I had to chose a group to keep, I'd chose crying little carebears over most of the egotistic pricks I've seen from New Order. Not everything is about how YOU see it. Have some moral decorum.


I certainly would not choose whining carebears over real players, no.

One will actually talk to you(and who knows, you might have some fun). The other is afk, nomming on rocks.

Which one sounds like better company to you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#164 - 2013-09-10 22:47:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
And honestly if I had to chose a group to keep, I'd chose crying little carebears over most of the egotistic pricks I've seen from New Order. Not everything is about how YOU see it. Have some moral decorum.

I certainly would not choose whining carebears over real players, no.

One will actually talk to you(and who knows, you might have some fun). The other is afk, nomming on rocks.

Which one sounds like better company to you?

After you explode and pod the afk nommer, they are no longer around, therefore we should shoot them and keep the fun guys around to chat with while we do it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nathalie LaPorte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2013-09-10 22:50:10 UTC
It is hardly surprising that those who prefer the company of rocks to that of people, also prefer the company of people who act like rocks over the company of people who act like people. The brotherhood of miners is thusly demystified.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#166 - 2013-09-10 22:51:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
You are obviously smart enough to understand that you do cause some people quite a bit of upset, and you guys respond to that by furthering it.


And? So, what, are we supposed to just adjudicate based on hurt feelings? Statistically, how likely is it that anyone you meet in EVE truly cares about your feelings? On the internet in general, even?

We're all adults here (theoretically). And as (theoretical) adults, we should be grown up enough to separate the game from reality. Those who fail to do this will not and should not receive special treatment as a result of their failure to adjust.

There's all types though. You I assume, are a relatively average, at least average intelligence person. Some people play because they are too ill to go out and socialise. Some people play because real life is not entirely pleasant.
Sure, you can RP, and you can say that all you are doing is affecting that persons character, but there are times when you know that is not the case, and you chose to press on. You having your RP fun is more important to you than the real life feelings of another person. Like I say, it's up to you guys how you chose to play, I'll stick with my morals and not treat everyone like **** just because "it's a game, go QQ elsewhere".
You can argue it to the end of the earth, but as far as I am concerned, under no circumstances is purposely upsetting another person for your own joy the right thing to do.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
And honestly if I had to chose a group to keep, I'd chose crying little carebears over most of the egotistic pricks I've seen from New Order. Not everything is about how YOU see it. Have some moral decorum.


I certainly would not choose whining carebears over real players, no.

One will actually talk to you(and who knows, you might have some fun). The other is afk, nomming on rocks.

Which one sounds like better company to you?
The New order are hardly what I would consider "real players". They spend all of their time harassing "noobs and carebears" spouting some half-assed biblical nonsense under the name of a nazi group. You do understand what "the new order" is right? They will deny it, but read their miner bumping site, and it's clear where it's influences lie.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#167 - 2013-09-10 23:03:49 UTC
Posting in a stealth "Why are women attracted to Billy Bob Thorton" thread.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#168 - 2013-09-10 23:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
baltec1 wrote:
RomeStar wrote:

Hey genius its only a bannable offence if you delete the character due to a low sec status. Pulling concord off the belt doesnt count or all gankers would be banned for pulling them off also. Its okay we understand your special.


Theyarnt pulling concord from the belt they are using them as invincible bodyguards.


They obviously aren't very good bodyguards if you can pull them right back off the belt. I converse with Tippia on a regular basis (who btw thinks it's not an exploit) and your whining is still giving me a headache. Bravo I guess.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#169 - 2013-09-10 23:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Derp.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2013-09-10 23:20:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

Setting aside all the glamor and glitter written in the Code, what is it really asking people to do? Interact. Play the game. Do you honestly think our gank teams can catch a miner who is ATK, tanky, and paying attention to local? That's a pretty hard gank to land, even worse in that we tell people exactly how we accomplish each kill.

Yes, killing a miner that is ATK, tanky and paying attention to local is pretty easy. Only a procurer or skiff would protect them from a gank landing on grid. Since you warp to your scout at distance, you can't even look out for a miner getting too close.
You new order guys put it behind the code, but at the end of the day, you'll gank whoever you want, whenever you want, regardless of code, permits and state of AFKness. It's just an RP reason to gank, which there's nowt wrong with.


not true my miner alt is a permit holder. i have never ganked a miner (yet.... but it is on my to do list) and i interact with the minerbumping people in their channel often. Several of them i consider in game friends. I have received helpful mining advice and friendly warnings. They are a great bunch of guys and i love it when they remove the competition.
I mine less now and i only really made the char because of the minerbumping blog. When i do mine it is usually low or null sec anyway these days.
anyway the minerbumping guys are as friendly and helpful as anyone you could meet in game and the core aim of making high sec types interact more and not play as a single player game is heartfelt and real. The people that switched sides from afk to minerbumping are all much happier and no one switches the other way. James was right and remains right.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#171 - 2013-09-10 23:20:57 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well at least you're honest which is refreshing. I will admit I am envious of how easy it is for you to amuse yourself.
Generally, when a ganker tell you their motivation, they're up-front. Unless they're role-playing, like the New Order folks.


Quote:
EDIT : I missed the little jab at me. I run tanks on all my miners and I mined through every hulkageddon without losing a single barge/exhumer. I have gotten to watch many failed gank attempts though over the years. The most amusing of the fails are those committed by the same ganker over and over...

The Orca has always ran a big tank with at least a shield harmonizer (lets be frank in that the capacitor and range mining links are meh)..

Then yo're not my prey. You've taken reasonable steps instead of whinging about how mean the world is.
On the other hand, you demonstrate my point nicely - Properly tanked, not getting ganked. Q.E.D.


Quote:
I have seen only one ganker who didn't gank tanked ships and while I cannot remember the name off the top of my head it was something to the effect of botslayer goblin.

EDIT 2 : I actually miss Hulkageddon because the mineral fields were always plumper during the event :(
How many go after Skiffs and Procurers? Damned few. How many take Retrievers over Macs? There's your evidence right there.

I've always presumed that the interdictions and Hulkageddons were as much about market PvP as they were about burning barges - And I bet even the burning barges were about economics - where were all those replacement barges built..?
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2013-09-10 23:30:55 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Different strokes I suppose. It's just a video game to me, I don't make moral judgements over a video game. To me, claiming someone is "bad" or "good" due to actions in EVE makes about as much sense as claiming someone is a mass murderer because they play CoD.


...and that's where the biggest problem of MMOs... no, the whole internet culture these days... lies. As soon as you are effecting the lives of others, you have a moral responsibility... especially when you are in a position of (questionable) power.

You might find that trivial... but there have been kids that killed them self due to internet mobbing, so, yea, it isn't trivial at all... you never know who the other person is, you are having so much fun picking on.

I know, that was painted in rather broad strokes, but I guess you get my meaning.


So you would advocate not shooting people in CoD?
Or any other shooting game?
When you play WoW u don't try and kill the other team in BG's?
EVE is a spaceship pvp game.
Market PVP in eve is brutal.
Half the gankers either mine and want mineral prices to rise or sell mining ships/ modules.
Get a grip it isn't about power it is about winning a computer game.
It is a game where making isk is dull (whether mission/ mining/ explore/ incursion/ plexing/ markets/ whatever)
some people are creative and find more fun ways to make isk.
spending isk on pvp is where the fun is and the market / indy guys are doing it just as much as the various shooting pvper's are.
The "pure" miners are the people least aware of how eve works and the people James most wants to help.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#173 - 2013-09-10 23:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Setting aside all the glamor and glitter written in the Code, what is it really asking people to do? Interact. Play the game.


Mining is possibly the least "play the game" activity available in EvE.
Even now that it's quicker, it's still the most boring if not downright terrible torture ever created in a MMO.

Blame the terrible gameplay designers, not the players who deal with such gameplay in the least soul crushing way available.

Of course the alternatives are as terrible:

- absolutely terrible industry workflow, with hundreds of clicks needed for few T2 batches.

- handsomely lackluster and repetitive missioning

- soul destroying moon scannning and mining.

- "shoot-in-the-nads" "fun" Planetary Interaction.

- "debatable" (to say the least) way to manage reactions, siloses etc.

- loltastic "0.01 ISK based" trading, including windows that used to be totally error prone (in their usage).

Basically whoever designed most EvE UI would not have got a toilette cleaning job anywhere else than at CCP.

But no. They were left to replicate and now we have splendid and modern examples of usability (and flawless functionality!) like the new launcher. Lol

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2013-09-10 23:46:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Yup, we target a specific group of people, ill-fit minders. Did you know, lowsec pirates target people carrying expensive cargo, and nullsec alliances target people they want to take/defend land from? The New Order also tends to spread out and move around some, as it helps prevent targeting the same person over and over again.

As for "changing playstyles"...you know, this is EVE. The cold, dark dystopian world where it's dog eat dog, morals are subjective, and you're only as strong as the guns you can bring to a fight. Yeah, I'd expect one to change their playstyle, if they think that means "Fly in in a retty, lock up some roids, and go watch Hulu till you hear asteroid depleted". Now, you may not be aware of this, but in PVP, when someone brings out a ship/fleet/doctrine that counters what you are flying, you "change your playstyle". He's got a brawler, better go fit kitey. Kitefit, go grab a brawler. These guys use cloaks, load up on smartbombs.
You can chuck as much justification on it as you think you need. It doesn't change the fact that you know you are upsetting some people in real life and proceed without pause. You chose to act in a way that brings you joy at the expense of others. If you are fine with that, by all means proceed. EVE is a harsh place with few rules and you are free to act as you wish. At the end of the day the only person you have to answer to is you.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Now, I'm pretty sure yer referring to Erotica 1 with the whole harassing and defaming out of game, well, that was the mark's decision to continue. Nobody held a gun to the guys head, or threatened his family. All said mark had to do was disconnect, walk off, and end it all. Greed, however, tends to be a powerful motivator for people to do silly things. And yes, I spent my time singing on teamspeak as a ransom. Used to be, you got teased a little bit, maybe a blogpost if you were really awful, and a pat on the back for saving your ship. Nowdays, getting someone to sing on TS is some kind of crime against humanity.
I'm not really one that generally believe it's the victims fault. I've listened to the whole clip. It's clear from the get-go that the guys is easy to manipulate, and at that point I would have stopped and been done with it, walking away with the original profit in hand. Would you say the same about an old lady getting beaten and robbed in her house because she didn't realise the guy at her front door was not really from the gas company? She let him in after all. I can think of countless examples, but the majority of them would not be suitable for posting on a game forum.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Just to throw out a little thing on morals, this morning I listened to a very disturbing voicemail. Someone using a voice modulator called my cell, and told me he knew my address, my workplace, and the make of car I drove. I was told to apologize to the "highsec Mining Community" and post proof of deletion of my accounts, "or else". I'm sure, being the awful evil ganker, blowing up spaceships in the spaceship exploding game, that I deserved that, according to some. Yes, the police are involved. I'll soundcloud the message as soon as I get my phone back.
That's bad, glad you are handling it correctly. Their actions are terrible, that's a given, but that doesn't change anything to do with yours. I can understand you'd be rightfully upset, and that's probably had some impact on your posting, but that's got nothing to do with why you pick the choices you do in game.


If the old lady had joined a violent street gang that fought other street gangs then it is totally legit. otherwise ofc not.
The people involved here choose to play eve.
don't undock what you can't afford to lose - this is the one rule to rule them all.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2013-09-10 23:50:07 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
~snipped for brevity~


I can respect your first point. At some point, you're going to upset someone in EVE. I've heard quite the rants from some market fiends about the blankity blank blanks undercutting their blanking orders by blanking .01ISK. On this character, I choose to be a bad guy. I just see as no better or worse than being "Robbers" in "Cops and Robbers", or playing the terrorists in Counter-Strike.

Second point, I consider the whole thing to be within EVE. EVE the games, the forums, assorted news sites and blogs, it's all "in the game". Yes, EVE is a "Victims fault" game. Regarding an old lady being beaten and robbed, that's a false equivalency. One is EVE, a video game. The other is a horrible crime committed in Real life. Guy gets overwhelmed by greed, does silly things. Had Erotica said something along the lines of "Now send me your carkeys/nude pictures/ bank ID and PIN number", then yes, it would have ventured into RL. Singing in TS is something many of us get to experience. At most, it dings some pride. At best, everyone gets a giggle and your rendition of Lady GaGa's "Alejandro" is banned from the home (True fact, I get glared at by EVERYONE if I even hum that song anymore) .

To answer the last part of your third point, Why not? I pay my sub fee, I want to experience all aspects of the game. I've been a supercap pilot, T2 manufacturer, logistics both repair ship and alliance. I've FC'ed megafleets and small roams. I've yarr'ed in Low, then turned around and hunted blinkies. RIght now, I feel like highsec ganking, running a mining corp, and hauling for ISK.

Perhaps I just see things differently. EVE doesn't upset the person behind the keyboard, here. When I start getting annoyed, I just log off and do something else. Lady Fappington the ganker holds about as much weight to me as Ezio Auditore does when I play Assassin's Creed. What happens to Lady Fap, my other avatars, the video game chars I play, happens to them, not me, the person typing right now.

As a new order player you are the good guy.
Also Erotica's karaoke sessions are legendary and a blast. I am not sure what her song choices have to do with this thread though.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#176 - 2013-09-11 05:18:37 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
The "pure" miners are the people least aware of how eve works and the people James most wants to help.


Oh my, all those clueless miners are realy grateful for that, I bet... Roll

...ignorance truly is bliss. Blink

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#177 - 2013-09-11 06:06:50 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
The "pure" miners are the people least aware of how eve works and the people James most wants to help.


Oh my, all those clueless miners are realy grateful for that, I bet... Roll

...ignorance truly is bliss. Blink


Idk about that. Eventually science will prove that severe boredom is bad for your health, then we will be hailed as heroes. 
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#178 - 2013-09-11 06:12:58 UTC
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
Idk about that. Eventually science will prove that severe boredom is bad for your health, then we will be hailed as heroes.


Maybe, but until then, I'd recommend revisiting the idea of forcing others to play the game they pay the same money for then you do, the way you want them too... it's far from beeing heroic.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#179 - 2013-09-11 07:53:57 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
Idk about that. Eventually science will prove that severe boredom is bad for your health, then we will be hailed as heroes.


Maybe, but until then, I'd recommend revisiting the idea of forcing others to play the game they pay the same money for then you do, the way you want them too... it's far from beeing heroic.


Ah, the "they pay the same as you" argument. Haven't seen that one in a while...Roll

The difference is, one of us pays the play the game, and one of us to functionally not play it.

Or were you making the "if the carebears quit, the game will die" argument instead?
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#180 - 2013-09-11 08:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Why bother, really... you just keep dismissing all arguments as you (people) always do, no matter how valid they may be... it's like discussing gun laws with a member of the NRA... funny, but useless.

I just wish one of you would have the guts to be sincere, for once: You enjoy making other people miserable... it's human... then again, making excuses for it also is, so one can still look oneself in the eye in the mirror. *shrugs*

You found your common "enemy" and created your "hate group" around it... must be really great to be you. Blink

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)