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Eve Miners Guide to the New Order of Highsec (A.K.A. James 315 and his gang), Part 1
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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2013-09-11 18:26:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
This is why the game allows it but it isn't a rule enforced.

"Fun" being relative... BECAUSE it is a game.

If my fun is bumping you off the rock you're mining and laughing at you, it's not a moral decision or in question at all. It's me manipulating space pixels.

I have the same risks, same chances, and same tools any one else has.

Your fun and my fun are not the same (can be).

A lot of people talk about how mining is "fun" because they socialize and it's "relaxing" but the act of mining isn't what that does.

The socializing does. They can do that docked, over ts3, whatever.

Since they undocked, they are in the same pond as everyone else, and unfortunately, someone is bound to pee in it. But that is a known, and accepted, risk of playing in Eve Online.

To be honest, I'm done arguing this.
If you don't know the difference between playing a game against someone and purposely upsetting another person just so you can laugh at their expense, then you are a ****.
/part thread



Freewill sucks doesn't it?

I don't gank, yet I understand the risks, and I get upset when it happens.

Unfortunately, as much as I think it's MY game (meaning I control my behavior) I have to recognize the fact that it's also YOUR game as well.

The rules are not in place for morality. They are in place for entertainment.

Even my kids like watching the movie Aliens and watching the tv show The Walking Dead and they cringe and laugh and show signs of disgust at the gory disgusting parts.

But they do it with a smile and want to watch it again.

Doesn't mean they are bad people, only entertained.

Just because I have no problem with someone blowing your ship up, doesn't mean I still wouldn't help you if I saw you broken down on the side of the road in hot weather (not that weather has anything to do with it), I'd still pull over and ask how I could help.

But in a game? Viva la explosion!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2013-09-11 19:12:48 UTC
I would say "cool story", except for:

1) KM found by posters is not API verified. OP is listed on eve-kill.net, and yet, the KM isn't there.

2) Even if kill is legit
a) Kill occurred in 2011 a good 6 months before James started his bumping.
b) OP claims kill was with a destroyer, and KM is a Drake.

3) There's so much incorrect information on game mechanics, it's hard to take the OP seriously.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#223 - 2013-09-11 19:56:27 UTC
Soylent Jade wrote:
I would say "cool story", except for:

1) KM found by posters is not API verified. OP is listed on eve-kill.net, and yet, the KM isn't there.

2) Even if kill is legit
a) Kill occurred in 2011 a good 6 months before James started his bumping.
b) OP claims kill was with a destroyer, and KM is a Drake.

3) There's so much incorrect information on game mechanics, it's hard to take the OP seriously.

Pity.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#224 - 2013-09-11 19:57:21 UTC
Quote:
Wow, sounds like you are quite the amazing individual.


Thanks, I think so too. Made my day.

Quote:
You can bully people you know are weaker than you and get upset over "space pixels", then go and look at yourself if your giant TV. Gee wizz I wish I could be you.


There can be only one.


Quote:

At the end of the day, it sounds like you're a selfish egotistic prick. Just because YOU are not upset by something doesn't give you the right to decide if other are or are not allowed to be upset by it, and it certainly doesn't mean it's good to purposely push them to upset them.

Oh, and let's just clarify. Not a lot of people are upset by the actual pixels being lost. They are upset because they invested time and effort into having fun, then for no reason someone came and took that fun away, the laughed in their face. If you were playing football, and I came and threw your ball away, then laughed in your face, I'm pretty sure you'd get angry at me. Would you be upset by the loss of the actual ball, grieving for it? Unlikely, you be upset at the fact that I ruined your fun and treated you badly.


Or, barring my ability to just kick their ass and get it back (6'3'' irl), I just go rustle up $3 and get another one. Heck, I live about 3 blocks from the Walmart, so I'll walk and get some exercise for it too.

Glass half full, yeesh.

But, you did have one point close to the mark. "invested time and effort". Unfortunately, some people add on "emotion" into that. Emotional investment in pixels is extremely silly. Even your example of a football is more grounded in reality than pixels are. It's the internet.

That stuff is inherently impermanent. Just like a pet fish. When an adult sees a pet fish die, even if you gave it a name, they think "meh, it's just a fish".

When I lose a ship (aside from laughing about it, because I lose ships in some pretty ******** ways), I say "meh, more where that came from". Not like I lost a Moracha or something I literally cannot replace.

Oh, and, by the way, I can't believe you bit the hook as hard as you did. Way to stay objective on the topic. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#225 - 2013-09-11 20:01:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

But in a game? Viva la explosion!

This is why you're a Good.

Carry on smartly. Cool
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2013-09-11 20:04:09 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

But in a game? Viva la explosion!

This is why you're a Good.

Carry on smartly. Cool



Seriously, there's no reason to buy a ship than to see it explode. And to find the most creative ways to do so is ideal.

And hopefully after you have gotten some kills with it, but not necessary.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#227 - 2013-09-11 20:09:42 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

But in a game? Viva la explosion!

This is why you're a Good.

Carry on smartly. Cool



Seriously, there's no reason to buy a ship than to see it explode. And to find the most creative ways to do so is ideal.

And hopefully after you have gotten some kills with it, but not necessary.


THIS is the right frame of mind.

Have some more likes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#228 - 2013-09-11 20:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
As an avid AFK miner i have been harassed numerous times while mining, if they are being particularly annoying i'll dock up or head for another system; however, just in case things ever should become fatal i have another fully fitted ship where my body will be sent when I die, within minutes i will be several systems from my demise mining in a new system.

fitted mining barges are cheap, taking a lot of time to go head to head with miner harassment groups is a waste of mining time.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2013-09-11 20:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
As a bumper and as a miner I have never fitted for tank unless it was my venture... and even then it wasn't highsec.

AFK is seriously the worst module to fit on your ship (but I've done it and came back to full holds, a wreck, etc).

If I wanted to mine in an area I thought dangerous and wanted to afk... it wouldn't matter if I fit yield or tank so I'd fit tank. Because who cares if you aren't there anyways.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#230 - 2013-09-11 20:20:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


But, you did have one point close to the mark. "invested time and effort". Unfortunately, some people add on "emotion" into that. Emotional investment in pixels is extremely silly. Even your example of a football is more grounded in reality than pixels are. It's the internet.


The funny thing is that the guy you are replying to is (like me) in a null sec alliance that has forcibly take solar systems from other player. I and my Alliance at the time (NCdot) put a lot of "Time and Effort" into Tribute, just to see the CFC take it away. Therefore, by Lucas Kell's definition, CFC is immoral because they didn't take our feelings into account before committing an act somewhere between robbery and a war crime lol.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#231 - 2013-09-11 20:21:39 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
As an avid AFK miner i have been harassed numerous times while mining, if they are being particularly annoying i'll dock up or head for another system; however, just in case things ever should become fatal i have another fully fitted ship where my body will be sent when I die, within minutes i will be several systems from my demise mining in a new system.

fitted mining barges are cheap, taking a lot of time to go head to head with miner harassment groups is a waste of mining time.

Also a valid approach, and another Good - For willing to accept the consequences of actions, and having thought about a plan of action in advance.

Carry on! Cool
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#232 - 2013-09-11 20:26:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


What leader, and I quote from minerbumping.com, was considered a "saviour"


Jesus Christ
Quote:

and "Supreme Protector"


Julius Caesar

Quote:

and had the objective of "the creation of a civilization", and rejected anyone not suitable for his perfect civilization?


Start With genghis Khan and work your way through history

Quote:

It's clear as day where the influences of most of the postings lie.


Leave Mittens out of it.
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2013-09-11 23:19:59 UTC
As far as mining without a tank. It is possible to figure out the difference in mining yield over time between an untanked miner and a tanked miner. Then calculate the replacement cost of your ship. Figure out how much more your untanked miner can mine vs the tanked version. Then figure out how many hours between ganks you will need for that to pay off.
Often it comes out to about 50 hours of game time.
I.E. if you can mine for 50 or more hours between ganks then you are financially ahead mining in an untanked ship.

If not then you are better off mining in a tanked ship.

If you can not stand being ganked at all then mine pudently.

Each fit should be figured out for the individual. I am using 50 hours very liberally here as an example.
Determine your own profit/loss ratio.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#234 - 2013-09-11 23:31:15 UTC
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
As far as mining without a tank. It is possible to figure out the difference in mining yield over time between an untanked miner and a tanked miner. Then calculate the replacement cost of your ship. Figure out how much more your untanked miner can mine vs the tanked version. Then figure out how many hours between ganks you will need for that to pay off.
Often it comes out to about 50 hours of game time.
I.E. if you can mine for 50 or more hours between ganks then you are financially ahead mining in an untanked ship.

If not then you are better off mining in a tanked ship.

If you can not stand being ganked at all then mine pudently.

Each fit should be figured out for the individual. I am using 50 hours very liberally here as an example.
Determine your own profit/loss ratio.




This is why Retrievers are popular, from what I can tell. They are cheap, but if you manage to get a full load with them more than a few times, you are ahead in the isk war.

Isk tanking is the term for this, yes?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Occultus Sapientia
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#235 - 2013-09-12 04:40:55 UTC
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
As far as mining without a tank. It is possible to figure out the difference in mining yield over time between an untanked miner and a tanked miner. Then calculate the replacement cost of your ship. Figure out how much more your untanked miner can mine vs the tanked version. Then figure out how many hours between ganks you will need for that to pay off.
Often it comes out to about 50 hours of game time.
I.E. if you can mine for 50 or more hours between ganks then you are financially ahead mining in an untanked ship.

If not then you are better off mining in a tanked ship.

If you can not stand being ganked at all then mine pudently.

Each fit should be figured out for the individual. I am using 50 hours very liberally here as an example.
Determine your own profit/loss ratio.


This would be me.
When I fly retrievers, they're dirt-cheap untanked vessels fitted with the bare minimum of modules to get a decent yield (note: NOT "Top Yield"). I figure the cost of lost hulls into the profit-loss calculation, and in the end, considering that I tend *not* to get ganked (Hint: spend time melting rocks in updating your local intelligence, watching D-Scan, and checking local - it pays off), I'm generally well ahead. When I do get caught napping, well, that's the cost of doing business. Reship, and melt some more.

Though honestly, I do tend to fly heavily-tanked Procurers, most of the time.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#236 - 2013-09-12 04:48:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is why Retrievers are popular, from what I can tell. They are cheap, but if you manage to get a full load with them more than a few times, you are ahead in the isk war.

Isk tanking is the term for this, yes?

Yes, you can also whine tank in order to get a buff

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Occultus Sapientia
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#237 - 2013-09-12 04:54:30 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is why Retrievers are popular, from what I can tell. They are cheap, but if you manage to get a full load with them more than a few times, you are ahead in the isk war.

Isk tanking is the term for this, yes?

Yes, you can also whine tank in order to get a buff
And what point is there to that? Much more effort than ISK Tanking, and not as profitable.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-09-12 06:46:04 UTC
'ISK tanking' is the fallacious concept that an expensive ship (freighters) shouldn't be ganked by fifty smaller ships when those fifty smaller ships cost less

It's not real
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#239 - 2013-09-12 14:44:56 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
'ISK tanking' is the fallacious concept that an expensive ship (freighters) shouldn't be ganked by fifty smaller ships when those fifty smaller ships cost less

It's not real

No that's not what it means. It means that below a certain income/loss ratio, losses cease to have meaning.

If it costs a miner, say, 40M ISK to replace a hull + mods, and that hull makes, say, 45M ISK between ganks, the miner is + 5M ISK per gank. OK, so ISK per unit time still matter, but basically at that ratio the miner is guaranteed to remain solvent, if not wealthy.

It's a valid concept.
Gaylord Fappington
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2013-09-12 16:27:29 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
'ISK tanking' is the fallacious concept that an expensive ship (freighters) shouldn't be ganked by fifty smaller ships when those fifty smaller ships cost less

It's not real

No that's not what it means. It means that below a certain income/loss ratio, losses cease to have meaning.

If it costs a miner, say, 40M ISK to replace a hull + mods, and that hull makes, say, 45M ISK between ganks, the miner is + 5M ISK per gank. OK, so ISK per unit time still matter, but basically at that ratio the miner is guaranteed to remain solvent, if not wealthy.

It's a valid concept.


Definitely a valid concept, but one would hope the numbers would be a little better in reality. If a miner is only making 5 million in profit from the act of buying and fitting a retriever, mining for hours in it, losing it, and buying and fitting their next retriever . . . .

I mean ratting in nullsec makes 5 million in the time it takes to buy and fit the new Retriever alone. No wonder some miners get so collicky when you gank them if they're doing all that to clear 5 million isk . . .