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Buff torpedos please ccp

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Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-09-09 20:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
I think we all can see that since cruise missles got buffed, the torps has become obsolete. Right now, cruise has 90-95%of the dps of torpedo and doesnt have any range issue, holds alot more ammo with a slower ROF.

Torpedo being a short range weapon should at least get a huge ammo capacity (50) at least and should have a way faster ROF. Right now the difference between cruise and torp is about 1s. The difference should be at least 4-5 seconds. Also why do we have to cout volleys with a short range weapon? it should be cruise missles that travel very slow and need to count volley not torpedos!

so here are some ways to buff torps without actually buffing the dps

1) increase the ammo capacity to 40
2) increase ROF to 4s a volley (lower the damage per vollley so dps is the same)
3) switch torp missile speed with cruise missile speed ( adjust the flight time of both so the range is unchanged Cruise should count volley when it doesnt have any range issues)
4) lower the price of faction torpedos (why is it average of 4k isk per missile? why is the price so high)
5) get rid of defenders from npc since it will kill all the slow moving cruise missiles

So on paper nothing really changed but in practice it will make torps a lot more attractive with fast firing low volley damage that is very different than cruise missiles. Right now they are both kinda similar in volley damage.
Azlin kenjui
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-09-09 21:03:45 UTC
I don't use any of this but ccp doesn't really effect the price of products that is the player base making the ammo. :) cruise should be faster then a Torp not sure if that's what you were saying. Maybe make torps more focused dmg as a cruise can have a larger radius?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-09-09 21:05:35 UTC
Azlin kenjui wrote:
I don't use any of this but ccp doesn't really effect the price of products that is the player base making the ammo. :) cruise should be faster then a Torp not sure if that's what you were saying. Maybe make torps more focused dmg as a cruise can have a larger radius?


This is disingenuous.

CCP can change the price of anything (albeit indirectly) by making it easier to get. In this case, if you want to make faction ammo cheaper, you could just lower the LP store costs to get it.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-09-09 21:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Azlin kenjui wrote:
I don't use any of this but ccp doesn't really effect the price of products that is the player base making the ammo. :) cruise should be faster then a Torp not sure if that's what you were saying. Maybe make torps more focused dmg as a cruise can have a larger radius?


This is disingenuous.

CCP can change the price of anything (albeit indirectly) by making it easier to get. In this case, if you want to make faction ammo cheaper, you could just lower the LP store costs to get it.


yup i bet its the lp conversion thats driving the price so high. also I am guessing because torpedos are so unpopular , the seller must make the price very high to make it worth selling. So maybe the problem is torpedos being very bad right now, no one wants to buy them which is why the high price.
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-09-09 22:21:54 UTC
just lower the torp sig radius that will make torp a very good, but it will buff SB and many bomber will be seen ganking everywhere
Sakaron Hefdover
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-09-09 22:39:51 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Azlin kenjui wrote:
I don't use any of this but ccp doesn't really effect the price of products that is the player base making the ammo. :) cruise should be faster then a Torp not sure if that's what you were saying. Maybe make torps more focused dmg as a cruise can have a larger radius?


This is disingenuous.

CCP can change the price of anything (albeit indirectly) by making it easier to get. In this case, if you want to make faction ammo cheaper, you could just lower the LP store costs to get it.


yup i bet its the lp conversion thats driving the price so high. also I am guessing because torpedos are so unpopular , the seller must make the price very high to make it worth selling. So maybe the problem is torpedos being very bad right now, no one wants to buy them which is why the high price.


No demand (eg no-one buying torps) and plenty of supply means the price will lower. On your example the price is high, meaning lots of people are buying torps. Or it could be a dead market where no-one really bothers to make or buy torps

a good idea will be to look at the market and compare the stock traded by the cruise missiles and the torps, if the torps stock traded amount is far lower than cruise, then people prefer cruise over torps.

Also, torps are a slower, heavy hitting weapon type. They should be slower than other weapon types because they are torps, and not for example, cruise assault missiles. Im not sure of the torps in relation to cruise and other guns, but I can manage about 400Dps with cruise in my raven with a range of 167km. I have roughly the same skills so I'll see what I can get with torps
Fia Magrath
The Clown Inquisition
#7 - 2013-09-09 22:44:56 UTC
how about they nerf cruise missiles instead? ^_^
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#8 - 2013-09-09 23:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Real problem for the torp missile is a limited range compared to the Cruise missile.
Fury Torp does a max dps of 1182, however the fury torp has only 1/6 range of a Fury Cruise. Meanwhile, the Fury Cruise will do 3/4 of the fury Torp's dps. Plus, Missile has a 100% effective dps from 0 to max range of the missile.

So, pilot would suffer low effective when armed with torp comparing to Cruise.

Solution:
Nerf Cruise Missile DPS
of
Nerf Cruise Missile Range
or
Buff Torp Missile Range
or
Buff Torp DPS

All calculate is on the Caldari Navy Raven with Level 5 Char with the 4 BCS II and T2 Launchers
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-09-09 23:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
deleted
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-09-10 00:02:54 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Real problem for the torp missile is a limited range compared to the Cruise missile.
Fury Torp does a max dps of 1182, however the fury torp has only 1/6 range of a Fury Cruise. Meanwhile, the Fury Cruise will do 3/4 of the fury Torp's dps. Plus, Missile has a 100% effective dps from 0 to max range of the missile.

So, pilot would suffer low effective when armed with torp comparing to Cruise.

Solution:
Nerf Cruise Missile DPS
of
Nerf Cruise Missile Range
or
Buff Torp Missile Range
or
Buff Torp DPS

All calculate is on the Caldari Navy Raven with Level 5 Char with the 4 BCS II and T2 Launchers



since most people who are against buffing torp say that they do enough dps, my solutions on the first post would makes torpedos more attractive to use and cruise missle lesser attractive without actually changing their dps or damage application. Right now, torps has a lot of disadvantages for a little bit of damage increase
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#11 - 2013-09-10 00:44:13 UTC
Torps are better than a lot of people think they are.

They are great for attacking cap fleets with BS size ships.

Just like the rest of the Caldari ship they are great in fleets v.s. target larger than themselves.

If Torps were to get buffed I'd look at explosion velocity first as the radius is already high and would keep smaller ships from getting hit hugely while still improving the dps landed in BS v.s. BS fights were torps seem to be highly out shined by other weapon types.

Speed up the explosion. Leave the range / and max possible DPS out of it. Explosion radius might need a small tweak but that is unknown until the speed is handled first.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#12 - 2013-09-10 01:37:48 UTC
CCP simply needs to have an electrical current passed through the mouse or keyboard of the operator based on what module he or she has fit to their ship. The more badass the module, the higher the voltage, making it harder for whiny carebears to come onto the forum and sperge meaningless whine poasts about how this or that thing is underpowered and needs a buff.

under this mechanism, torpedoes would require the user to endure searing pain, because Chuck Norris uses a Torp Raven.

it is a fact that torps are badass. You just can't handle them.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#13 - 2013-09-10 03:52:42 UTC
I think what Torps need is a small range buff and that's it, and for people complaining about SBs, they can reduce the SB bonus by an amount that will leave them with the same range as before the buff.
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-09-10 07:30:41 UTC
I think everybody agrees that torps are somewhat good on SBs, mostly due the hull bonuses. Why not to move the bonuses into torps and invent new ones for bombers. On any other ship than SB or Raven, their range is pathetic so Cruise missiles win, while having almost the same dps.
And T2 torp launchers need CPU reduction.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#15 - 2013-09-10 07:43:52 UTC
CCP are happy with torpedoes as a weapon system. I don't think they have any intention of changing them.

Oh god.
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-09-10 08:17:42 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Torps are better than a lot of people think they are.

They are great for attacking cap fleets with BS size ships.

Just like the rest of the Caldari ship they are great in fleets v.s. target larger than themselves.

If Torps were to get buffed I'd look at explosion velocity first as the radius is already high and would keep smaller ships from getting hit hugely while still improving the dps landed in BS v.s. BS fights were torps seem to be highly out shined by other weapon types.

Speed up the explosion. Leave the range / and max possible DPS out of it. Explosion radius might need a small tweak but that is unknown until the speed is handled first.


I agree wholly with the latter part of this post, however torps vs caps - not really nowadays.

The difference in dps between fury and rage is approx. 10-15%. For this difference you buy a lot faster missiles with higher alpha. This means four positives for the dps negative:
• faster application means less time for reps to land after redboxed
• range is enough across the whole field
• less vulnerable to smartbombs due to passing the perimeter fast, however I haven't checked into torp hp to verify if its not built in as counter
• actually works on subcaps, too, at range

The improvements i would look into:
• explosion velocity as all have stated, because short range weapons generally shine in damage application
• more hp to make them smartbomb proof, and this is very important to put them into a niche and also bonus effects like allowing pve smartbomb golem

Alternatively:
• most dps (1500 range)
• worse application
To bring back the torp boats that supplement gang but need super tackle.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#17 - 2013-09-10 09:29:11 UTC
Torpedo Range is a joke. The only BS that can use them effectively is the Golem, and not content with it being slow already, CCP plan to make it slower still. The velocity and flight times of Torps needs a massive boost. T2 Torps should have a 60 KM range and Javelins up to 80 KM.

They might actually get used then.

As things stand currently, there is NO reason to choose Torps over CMs for Lvl 4 PVE.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#18 - 2013-09-10 09:30:06 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
CCP are happy with torpedoes as a weapon system. I don't think they have any intention of changing them.


Sauce?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#19 - 2013-09-10 10:25:28 UTC
First of all, torps rock as they are.

Range is not really a problem, you will see that its pretty much consistent with the range differences in the other missile size tiers. What is reversed is the damage application, speed and ammo per launcher stats.

Also, here is sth from CCP Rise that may indicate a change in the current torp stats (or how good torps might be in the future) :

CCP Rise wrote:
I appreciate the well constructed post. I can't give you an equally thorough response but I can say a few things on the subject.

First - torps simply perform better than you make it seem using your example. A mega has a tracking bonus for one, so its a weird thing to use for comparison, and theres a lot of other factors which aren't really accounted for. I picked out an example of my own to sort of demonstrate what I mean. This represents a 3bcu cruise raven, a 3bcu torp raven, and a 2mfs hyperion all shooting the same shield extended cruiser that is webbed: http://imgur.com/sP8JJZ6

As you can see, you get better max potential damage from the turrets, but the torps give you a lot more range flexibility. Both weapons are probably better than cruise until you get outside of effective range for them and then cruise takes over. This seems fairly healthy and I'm sure you can give examples where it isn't true, but there's an awful lot where it is true.

Second - and maybe more interesting to you - there's some work being done which will impact this situation. Some of it I can't talk about now but the most important piece is that we're looking seriously at more mod interactions with missiles. A missile equivalent to tracking enhancers, for instance, would allow you the flexibility to gain more damage application and/or range. If we are able to get something like this in before too long, we would likely be re-evaluating the state of all missile systems in relation to the change and some tweaks may happen as a result.

Thanks for the post o/
To mare
Advanced Technology
#20 - 2013-09-10 10:48:31 UTC
difference in damage its not so big anymore but its still noticeable.
1. i think torps need a range buff they should cover 30km max skill w/o ship bonus (rocket 10km, ham 20km, torps 30km)
2. i think torps should apply damage better than cruise since they are a short range weapon, same way ham and rockets apply damage better than they long range counterpart.

no need of damage boost (even if i would be happy to have one)
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