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Every time we make a clone, damage COULD be done to our DNA.

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Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-09-08 21:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rogue Lawyer
Hi

So I have been thinking of late and the topic which I have been thinking a lot about is cloning, in Eve Online pod pilots do not die or at least the mind within the body does not die but the body itself can be lost just after our pod breaks we jump into a new body some thousands of light years away. Almost without any negative effects.

On the face of it it all seems a little bit to good to be true. According to several real life studies it has been shown that when animals are cloned the DNA is damage, by damage I mean disrupted genes etc, some of it being quite minute.

That line of thought for instance has been carried over in many Sci-Fi shows such as the Asgard Race is in Star Gate who after decades of extending their lives through cloning they have suffered several and incurable damage to their DNA and despite being an extraordinary advanced race they never found a cure.

It is a storyline very similar to the Jove and the current Jovian disease, and although Templar one did reveal a little bit about the nature of the illness we still don't fully understand how it works on a biological level ( correct me if I am wrong ).

So could it be possible that pod pilots could be damaging a bit of their DNA when they move to or create new clone.

after all immortality, infinite supply of new bodies, surely it's all too utopian for a game set against a back drop of a dystopian Galaxy.

Kind Regards
Sahara Gogiko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-09-08 23:36:49 UTC
hmmm interesting thought I believe the Empress Jamyl and Falek Grange to be a an example of how delicate the cloning process is; Jamyl becoming a split personality when she deliberately tampered with the process and Grange missing chunks of his memories. Personally I think we are an exact digital copy and can be copied many times over of course another point is do we even need a cloned body to be put into?
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3 - 2013-09-09 12:49:09 UTC
Frankly, I'd be more concerned about cosmic radiation than cloning mucking up our DNA.
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-09-09 13:21:47 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Frankly, I'd be more concerned about cosmic radiation than cloning mucking up our DNA.


The crew of a vessel can easily be shielded from cosmic radiation and cosmic radiation damages a single one body, it would in theory therefore not have the same long term ramifications that re cloning would create.

For instance NASA today uses aluminium walls to try and protect the crew of a space ship and it has proven to be working, scientist are even conducting research into how magnetic fields can be built.

All this done by a society far from even dreaming about faster than light speed being a reality, by that virtue the deflection of cosmic radiation would be a piece of cake in the world of Eve.
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-09-09 13:33:22 UTC
Sahara Gogiko wrote:
hmmm interesting thought I believe the Empress Jamyl and Falek Grange to be a an example of how delicate the cloning process is; Jamyl becoming a split personality when she deliberately tampered with the process and Grange missing chunks of his memories. Personally I think we are an exact digital copy and can be copied many times over of course another point is do we even need a cloned body to be put into?



Interesting question, well we need a cloned bodies because we have to operate biologically, for instance we need to have a working brain into order for the implants to be inserted and we control a ship with our minds which in turn is from the thoughts of our brains ( correct me if I am wrong ).

It all seems that even if we know how the pods work on a basic level, don't think people know how they function per se. Being of Jovian origin they could be beyond our understanding at the moment ( again I may stand to be corrected ).
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-09-09 13:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
It is proposed, that frequent clone death and subsequent re-cloning is the major cause to 'capsuleer dementia'; a mental state of mind, where the subject rejects common decency and morality and instead behaves like a teenager playing a computergame.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#7 - 2013-09-09 16:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
As far as I've understood it, the clone is always made from the same, original template. Which means, unless the body clone was borked from the get go, it's DNA would not degrade because it is always the same DNA, not the DNA of a clone of a clone of a clone.
So basically as an egger you are forever young (or old).

I am not an expert on cloning but that's what I've gotten from PF, might be I've understood it wrong too, of course.


Edit: I also imagine, that in the future where they have technology we can only dream of, they take great pains in assuring our clones are handled with utmost care and checked for genetic errors as they mature and discarded if such errors occur - we pay such exorbitant amounts of money to them for such a service after all.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-09-09 22:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: kraiklyn Asatru
Rogue Lawyer wrote:
Hi

So I have been thinking of late and the topic which I have been thinking a lot about is cloning, in Eve Online pod pilots do not die or at least the mind within the body does not die but the body itself can be lost almost and we will jump into a new body some thousand light years away. Almost without any negative effects.

On the face of it it all seems a little bit to good to be true. According to several real life studies it has been shown that when animals are cloned the DNA is damage, by damage I mean disrupted genes etc, some of it being quite minute.

That line of thought for instance has been carried over in many Sci-Fi shows such as the Asgard Race is in Star Gate who after decades of extending their lives through cloning they have suffered several and incurable damage to their DNA and despite being an extraordinary advanced race they never found a cure.

It is a storyline very similar to the Jove and the current Jovian disease, and although Templar one did reveal a little bit about the nature of the illness we still don't fully understand how it works on a biological level ( correct me if I am wrong ).

So could it be possible that pod pilots could be damaging a bit of there DNA when they move to or create new clone a bit of damage could be done to our DNA?

after all immortality, infinite supply of new bodies, surely it's all too utopian for a game set against a back drop of a dystopian Galaxy.

Kind Regards



No. Simply put, if one takes the current tech used for cloning one would use stem cells or more likely female eggs, remove the nucleus and implant a nucleus of an another cell. When it comes to humans we have a **** ton of cells, it isn't that hard to safe a few. Meaning every clone grown could be from DNA taken the first time.

More interesting would be the mitochondrial DNA and its influence on clones, and the influence of chromatin, methylation and such. That is if they are working with our primitive tech. Which I assume they aren´t.

The growing clone bodies would be the easy part in it all. Except they need a way to speed up bodily development... More interesting it the development of the brain and how one would possible transfer the information in a brain and the entire neural patterns. So the damage to worry about is not DNA damage. Since bodies can be grown from initial source material..
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-09-10 02:55:56 UTC
From what I recall, the DNA they use is the same, perfect DNA from when you first became a capsuleer every time you are cloned rather than a new sample every time you die. This is why capsuleers are effectively immortal. If I became a capsuleer when my body was physically 21, then each clone will be as I was when I was 21.

Of course, I would assume our bodies can still age. If I somehow manage to avoid being killed for 10 years, my current clone would of aged 10 years. If at any time I wanted to reset the clock, I could jump into another clone. Same thing goes in regards to illnesses and injury. This body becomes crippled? No matter, hop into a new one!

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
CCP Falcon
#10 - 2013-09-10 19:44:48 UTC
Cloning in EVE is not representative of cloning that's been trialed in the real world.

A capsuleer is not a true "clone" by the definition.

A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.

It's only when a sample of the capsuleer's DNA is introduced to the mix does the clone take on the appearance of the capsuleer in question through genetic sculpting.

In the most brutal of descriptions, pulling no punches, a capsuleer is effectively a can of spam with human DNA injected into it to make physically recognizable and to make its brain match that of the mind to be hosted.

On the most fundamental level, a capsuleer's clone is nothing more than a tool they use, just as they would a spacecraft or weapon. It either gets shot from under them, or they toss it away and get a new one when it wears out.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#11 - 2013-09-10 20:22:42 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.
So are Dust clones all the same unsculpted blank?

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Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-09-10 20:26:58 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.
So are Dust clones all the same unsculpted blank?



dust clones are much less personalized and more geared towards being easily available and suitable for a highly dangerous environment
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#13 - 2013-09-10 20:31:58 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.
So are Dust clones all the same unsculpted blank?



dust clones are much less personalized and more geared towards being easily available and suitable for a highly dangerous environment
Why do we name them, then? Why are they specialized? (I understand from a game design perspective), but it doesn't make any sense from an in-universe point of view.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Callic Veratar
#14 - 2013-09-10 20:48:03 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.
So are Dust clones all the same unsculpted blank?



dust clones are much less personalized and more geared towards being easily available and suitable for a highly dangerous environment
Why do we name them, then? Why are they specialized? (I understand from a game design perspective), but it doesn't make any sense from an in-universe point of view.


The clones maybe be blank, however the mind behind the meat is what's important.
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-09-10 22:59:16 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Cloning in EVE is not representative of cloning that's been trialed in the real world.

A capsuleer is not a true "clone" by the definition.

A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.

It's only when a sample of the capsuleer's DNA is introduced to the mix does the clone take on the appearance of the capsuleer in question through genetic sculpting.

In the most brutal of descriptions, pulling no punches, a capsuleer is effectively a can of spam with human DNA injected into it to make physically recognizable and to make its brain match that of the mind to be hosted.

On the most fundamental level, a capsuleer's clone is nothing more than a tool they use, just as they would a spacecraft or weapon. It either gets shot from under them, or they toss it away and get a new one when it wears out.



Thank you for the Clarification on the cloning process CCP Falcon.
LordSwift
Wrabble Wrousers
#16 - 2013-09-11 12:27:33 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Cloning in EVE is not representative of cloning that's been trialed in the real world.

A capsuleer is not a true "clone" by the definition.

A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.

It's only when a sample of the capsuleer's DNA is introduced to the mix does the clone take on the appearance of the capsuleer in question through genetic sculpting.

In the most brutal of descriptions, pulling no punches, a capsuleer is effectively a can of spam with human DNA injected into it to make physically recognizable and to make its brain match that of the mind to be hosted.

On the most fundamental level, a capsuleer's clone is nothing more than a tool they use, just as they would a spacecraft or weapon. It either gets shot from under them, or they toss it away and get a new one when it wears out.



Question i have then, we may be a body of spam :) but would it function like a human body like normal. i.e live like normal out the pod if we retire, grow old, have kids? if we wanted to that is.

Mal: "If anyone gets nosy, just...you know... shoot 'em. "

Zoe: "Shoot 'em?"

Mal: "Politely."
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#17 - 2013-09-11 13:10:33 UTC
LordSwift wrote:
Question i have then, we may be a body of spam :) but would it function like a human body like normal. i.e live like normal out the pod if we retire, grow old, have kids? if we wanted to that is.


There was an old thread on this forum some time ago, and I believe it got a blue answer that yes, capsuleers can have children and retire and live out a normal life - if they want to, but the question is why would they want to. Altough, female capsuleers can not or at least would be ill advised to use the capsule while pregnant, for obvious reasons.
CCP Falcon
#18 - 2013-09-11 22:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
LordSwift wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Cloning in EVE is not representative of cloning that's been trialed in the real world.

A capsuleer is not a true "clone" by the definition.

A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.

It's only when a sample of the capsuleer's DNA is introduced to the mix does the clone take on the appearance of the capsuleer in question through genetic sculpting.

In the most brutal of descriptions, pulling no punches, a capsuleer is effectively a can of spam with human DNA injected into it to make physically recognizable and to make its brain match that of the mind to be hosted.

On the most fundamental level, a capsuleer's clone is nothing more than a tool they use, just as they would a spacecraft or weapon. It either gets shot from under them, or they toss it away and get a new one when it wears out.



Question i have then, we may be a body of spam :) but would it function like a human body like normal. i.e live like normal out the pod if we retire, grow old, have kids? if we wanted to that is.


When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there Smile

Also, just for reference, everything I posted there is freely available in EVE's published prime fiction, you just have to read and digest it, something I enthsiastically encourage you all to keep doing as much as possible. Big smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Matar Ronin
#19 - 2013-09-12 00:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
CCP Falcon wrote:

When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there Smile

Also, just for reference, everything I posted there is freely available in EVE's published prime fiction, you just have to read and digest it, something I enthsiastically encourage you all to keep doing as much as possible. Big smile
CCP Falcon this begs the question, are there buffered back-up copies of capsuleers existing anywhere in the system that can re-animated once a link is lost with a capsuleer for any preset period of time?

Granted you would lose memory of everything that transpired from your last buffered back-up but at least you'd be alive again. Is this how the "Broker" operated with video and audio recordings of what his un-capsulized clones had experienced prior to their deaths?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

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Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-09-12 09:56:46 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
LordSwift wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Cloning in EVE is not representative of cloning that's been trialed in the real world.

A capsuleer is not a true "clone" by the definition.

A capsuleer's body is effectively a lump of re-constituted biomass and giblets assembled around a skeleton (either medically grown bone, or synthetic polymer) in the form of a blank. All the blanks grown are identical.

It's only when a sample of the capsuleer's DNA is introduced to the mix does the clone take on the appearance of the capsuleer in question through genetic sculpting.

In the most brutal of descriptions, pulling no punches, a capsuleer is effectively a can of spam with human DNA injected into it to make physically recognizable and to make its brain match that of the mind to be hosted.

On the most fundamental level, a capsuleer's clone is nothing more than a tool they use, just as they would a spacecraft or weapon. It either gets shot from under them, or they toss it away and get a new one when it wears out.



Question i have then, we may be a body of spam :) but would it function like a human body like normal. i.e live like normal out the pod if we retire, grow old, have kids? if we wanted to that is.


When you unplug from the capsule, you're just as vulnerable as any other meat-sack out there Smile

Also, just for reference, everything I posted there is freely available in EVE's published prime fiction, you just have to read and digest it, something I enthsiastically encourage you all to keep doing as much as possible. Big smile


Lawl.

Giblets.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
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