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FAO: [TS-F] and Affiliates
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#41 - 2013-09-11 00:00:09 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:


And we wouldn't consider that comment to be an accurate representation of the situation.


Care to enlighten me on what you would consider to be an accurate representation of the situation?


No.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-09-11 00:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


For the record: This is why we don't bother to talk to you with any regard to creating peace. You're too far gone for peace.


If peace was on your agenda you would at least attempt to reason with us, even if you believed your efforts would be futile. The big four do it all the time, why can't you? The fact that your Nation has made absolutely no attempts to make peace means that peace is not your goal, no matter what you've deluded yourselves into thinking.

Stop kidnapping entire planetary populations, and maybe we won't be so determined to rid you from the cluster.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


For the record: This is why we don't bother to talk to you with any regard to creating peace. You're too far gone for peace.

As to some other points you made..

1) This point was brought up. We aren't trying to give you our Utopia. We aren't trying to spread it. Your understanding is, frankly, not required. The only thing that is required from you is that you remain out of our way, and too weak to do any appreciable harm to it even if you do get in the way.

2) People will criticize our Utopia. We don't care to submit it to so-called "Honest Debate" because such a thing does not exist. The responses in this thread have more than proven that to be the case.

3) Later sections of your post show that you do, indeed, only wish to troll, as it were. An honest debate has two parties, throwing ideas back and forth. I am not interested in throwing ideas at you, and you are not interested in receiving them, so no honest debate is possible. Therefore we don't try.

4) You havent made a dent in the Incursions. Meanwhile, 3/4 Incursions, including almost ALL in lowsec, go completely unopposed. Of those incursions that go opposed, the capsuleers, driven by greed, wait until it is withdrawing. That is to say until they are done doing whatever it is they need to do.

Edited to add a little more to my answer.


Edit to respond to your edit;

1. If you weren't trying to spread your ideals or at the very least, your influence, you wouldn't be launching incursions or concerned with people getting in your way.

2. A popular saying among mindclash players is "You can't win the game if you don't play it". There is no debate because you refuse to take part in one. Refusing to defend your ideals when you are clearly capable of doing so is either due to arrogance or casting doubt on your own beliefs. In case you haven't noticed, the vast majority of post here are not meant to be inflammatory. They are almost all curious and open minded people willing to learn a thing or two about the Nation even if they don't like what they learn. You are refusing to teach them. Granted, you hold every right to refuse us and I respect that, but don't expect me to be happy with it.

3. Trust me, if I intended to troll and make an ass of myself you would know. I suggest looking at my comments on Diana Kim's recent and ridiculous "essay" on killing invisible Gallenteans. That's trolling. This isn't.

4. We've kept Incursions out of Hi-sec where there are the most people and assets to protect. As long as our hold on hi-sec continues we have nothing to fear from you. The reason why you can still muck about in lowsec is because, the four Empires are kinda waging war right now. If you posed an actual threat, we would unite and utterly annihilate you, just like last time. Unless you have a trick up your sleeve, which I doubt but hey, I've been wrong before.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:


And we wouldn't consider that comment to be an accurate representation of the situation.


Care to enlighten me on what you would consider to be an accurate representation of the situation?


No.


The question wasn't directed at you, but at your more negotiable and open minded colleague.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#43 - 2013-09-11 00:17:30 UTC
If you wish to speak with me without outside commentary, I sugguest mail and not forum interaction.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#44 - 2013-09-11 00:17:59 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


For the record: This is why we don't bother to talk to you with any regard to creating peace. You're too far gone for peace.


If peace was on your agenda you would at least attempt to reason with us, even if you believed your efforts would be futile. The big four do it all the time, why can't you? The fact that your Nation has made absolutely no attempts to make peace means that peace is not your goal, no matter what you've deluded yourselves into thinking.

Stop kidnapping entire planetary populations, and maybe we won't be so determined to rid you from the cluster.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:


And we wouldn't consider that comment to be an accurate representation of the situation.


Care to enlighten me on what you would consider to be an accurate representation of the situation?


No.


The question wasn't directed at you, but at your more negotiable and open minded colleague.


You need to learn your history, kid. Nation was leaving well enough alone until you proved we can't co-exist in YC 37. Now you're the ones whining about co-existance, or trying to pretend that you are. We aren't interested in peace on your terms because that has been proven by history to be a futile effort. The peace will be on our terms, with your empires simply too weak and fragmented to do anything about it.

We encourage you to take up your arms against us, because we will be taking up our arms against you.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-09-11 00:36:56 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


You need to learn your history, kid. Nation was leaving well enough alone until you proved we can't co-exist in YC 37. Now you're the ones whining about co-existance, or trying to pretend that you are. We aren't interested in peace on your terms because that has been proven by history to be a futile effort. The peace will be on our terms, with your empires simply too weak and fragmented to do anything about it.

We encourage you to take up your arms against us, because we will be taking up our arms against you.


Sorry, but luring billions of people into a trap and turning them into cyber-slaves against their will doesn't really go so well with us. The fact that Mr. Kuvakei is so surprised that we didn't like it when you turned our peoples into automatons shows just how deranged that man is, or how lacking in understanding we are. I lean towards the former but you're welcome to convince me otherwise.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#46 - 2013-09-11 00:42:59 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


You need to learn your history, kid. Nation was leaving well enough alone until you proved we can't co-exist in YC 37. Now you're the ones whining about co-existance, or trying to pretend that you are. We aren't interested in peace on your terms because that has been proven by history to be a futile effort. The peace will be on our terms, with your empires simply too weak and fragmented to do anything about it.

We encourage you to take up your arms against us, because we will be taking up our arms against you.


Sorry, but luring billions of people into a trap and turning them into cyber-slaves against their will doesn't really go so well with us. The fact that Mr. Kuvakei is so surprised that we didn't like it when you turned our peoples into automatons shows just how deranged that man is, or how lacking in understanding we are. I lean towards the former but you're welcome to convince me otherwise.


Yeah. Your history. Learn it.

We're done here.
Ollie Rundle
#47 - 2013-09-11 00:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ollie Rundle
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Stop kidnapping entire planetary populations, and maybe we won't be so determined to rid you from the cluster.


To be fair to Tiberious and his colleagues in TS-F and the Shaktipat Revelators, their members aren't actively kidnapping entire planetary populations nor have they shown any inclination or capacity to do so. Even the true Nation forces have scaled these activities back in recent years.

At their worst, TS-F may have 'harvested' a few communities here and there or 'salvaged and repurposed' some survivors of space-based conflict. For the most part, they're sitting in systems within Placid content to mine and pirate, with occasional roams into neighbouring null-sec regions just to keep things interesting. This is the activity Solarienne alluded to in her posting earlier in the thread, logs of which are readily accessible through a variety of public databases (as she indicated).

TS-F is a loyalist capsuleer organisation, they're not Nation itself and they're not linked intimately with the plans of Nation or Kuvakei as a result. If they fly into an Incursion system and attempt to support Nation forces there, they are fired on by Sansha's ships like any other capsuleer. Despite this, they believe in what he stands for and promote those beliefs to anyone that will listen.

Beyond that they're really not too different from other loyalist pirate corporations.

To try and return this to Repentence's original intention for the thread:

One of the key points many Nation loyalists put forward as a reason for their belief in Kuvakei's vision is the betterment of humanity often in the context of an emergent post-human/transhuman age that threatens humanity in some way or another. They believe that all actions undertaken by Nation's forces are justified in this context - that whatever the cost humanity will survive under Kuvakei's system.


  1. What other systems are there that would achieve this same end without the need for the drastic measures Nation has been responsible for?

  2. What is Nation's solution for those human societies who wish to keep their humanity and mortality in a future where 'there is no death in Nation' is one of its rallying cries? Do you allow them, unaltered and with all their imperfections, to live alongside or even within your utopia? Do you build a great wall to keep the rabble out hoping that they never blow it down again? Do you burn them and their genetic memory from existence out of fear that they might?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-09-11 00:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Ollie Rundle wrote:

TS-F is a loyalist capsuleer organisation, they're not Nation itself and they're not linked intimately with the plans of Nation or Kuvakei as a result. If they fly into an Incursion system and attempt to support Nation forces there, they are fired on by Sansha's ships like any other capsuleer. Despite this, they believe in what he stands for and promote those beliefs to anyone that will listen.


Fair enough. Shame I couldn't get this response from a TS-F member, though I am satisfied. Thank you for your arbitration and clearing up any misconceptions.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2013-09-11 12:41:01 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
And because I thought the future of Humanity was more important then any set of laws or moralities that I used to subscribe to I let go of my prejudice against Nation.

"Man, when perfected, is the best of animals, but when separated from law and justice, he is the worst of all."
If humanity loses law and morality, humanity is already lost.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-09-11 16:03:06 UTC
Actually Ollie-deary, TSF has been intricately involved with quite a few Nation operations, and instrumental in the success of plenty of their plans of several years past. Feel free to check the records but you'll find numerous examples of Nation members operating with TSF over public comms, and using their fleets to coordinate attacks, etc.


I do have to give a bit of a waving of the finger to you though, TSF. I heard up and down how you weren't going to get sucked into a multi-page fake debate on this particular thread but... well here we are! Tsk Tsk!




Sabik now, Sabik forever
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#51 - 2013-09-11 17:19:59 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
And because I thought the future of Humanity was more important then any set of laws or moralities that I used to subscribe to I let go of my prejudice against Nation.

"Man, when perfected, is the best of animals, but when separated from law and justice, he is the worst of all."
If humanity loses law and morality, humanity is already lost.


I cling to law, just not Amarrian law. And the morality of every culture is different.
Ollie Rundle
#52 - 2013-09-11 18:20:38 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Actually Ollie-deary, TSF has been intricately involved with quite a few Nation operations, and instrumental in the success of plenty of their plans of several years past. Feel free to check the records but you'll find numerous examples of Nation members operating with TSF over public comms, and using their fleets to coordinate attacks, etc.

While they've certainly participated as capsuleer loyalists in aiding Nation fleet operations (and allies of Nation) since the War of Resurgence began in YC112, my point stands that they remain just that - capsuleer loyalists to a pirate faction rather than a confirmed part of the faction itself. I believe that's usually how they themselves characterise any connection with Nation also.

What about the heart of the discussion though Silas? I'd have thought someone like you might have been able to conceive of an interesting and unique perspective on what capsuleers are to humanity - given the various heights you've reached and some of the depths you've plumbed along the way. Surely you've got some insights that suggest there's more to you than just a pallid imitation of Revan Nefaris?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-09-11 19:59:33 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:
What about the heart of the discussion though Silas? I'd have thought someone like you might have been able to conceive of an interesting and unique perspective on what capsuleers are to humanity - given the various heights you've reached and some of the depths you've plumbed along the way. Surely you've got some insights that suggest there's more to you than just a pallid imitation of Revan Nefaris?



Don't mistake this shallow and baiting multi-page pile of offal for a 'discussion' of any sort.

And asking for someone's "interesting and unique" perspectives on a topic immediately before insulting them is usually counter-productive, neh?

Perhaps when we have a more reasonable topic on the subject started I'll participate with some thoughts.





Sabik now, Sabik forever
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2013-09-11 20:14:57 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
And because I thought the future of Humanity was more important then any set of laws or moralities that I used to subscribe to I let go of my prejudice against Nation.

"Man, when perfected, is the best of animals, but when separated from law and justice, he is the worst of all."
If humanity loses law and morality, humanity is already lost.


I cling to law, just not Amarrian law. And the morality of every culture is different.

Well, can you exlain then how how you are able to leave any set of laws or moralities behind in order to ensure the future of humanity? Didn't you say up in the original quote that only after letting go of law and morality you got past your 'prejudices' against Nation?
Law serves justice and justice is only possible if there is moral authorship of actions by individuals. The morality of every culture might be different, but that doesn't say that they all aren't founded in an ultimate moral reality.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#55 - 2013-09-11 20:55:15 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
And because I thought the future of Humanity was more important then any set of laws or moralities that I used to subscribe to I let go of my prejudice against Nation.

"Man, when perfected, is the best of animals, but when separated from law and justice, he is the worst of all."
If humanity loses law and morality, humanity is already lost.


I cling to law, just not Amarrian law. And the morality of every culture is different.

Well, can you exlain then how how you are able to leave any set of laws or moralities behind in order to ensure the future of humanity? Didn't you say up in the original quote that only after letting go of law and morality you got past your 'prejudices' against Nation?
Law serves justice and justice is only possible if there is moral authorship of actions by individuals. The morality of every culture might be different, but that doesn't say that they all aren't founded in an ultimate moral reality.


Just to clarify, she didn't say she got rid of Laws and Morality. She got rid of her OLD laws and morality.

New structures are required for a new world.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2013-09-11 23:36:15 UTC
I don't want to nitpick but doesn't "any set of laws or moralities" imply that she got rid of morals and law altogether? If she'd have wanted to imply that she cast aside her old set, wouldn't it be rather "some set of laws and moralities"?

What she said was in essence that survival of humanity is more important than law and morality. My counter was that without law and morality humanity is lost already.
Ollie Rundle
#57 - 2013-09-11 23:58:13 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Don't mistake this shallow and baiting multi-page pile of offal for a 'discussion' of any sort.

And asking for someone's "interesting and unique" perspectives on a topic immediately before insulting them is usually counter-productive, neh?


Whether something's counter-productive or not usually depends on the goal. In this case, I proved what I'd hoped to - that if the embers are stoked in the right way there's still some fire there, which is a welcome contrast to the usual mask of superficial banality and cliched disinterest that you take such care to fashion.

You actually rose to the bait for the first time I can remember in a very long time. Good for you.

Silas Vitalia wrote:
Perhaps when we have a more reasonable topic on the subject started I'll participate with some thoughts.


Whether you rise to the challenge remains to be seen.
Ollie Rundle
#58 - 2013-09-12 00:11:12 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
I don't want to nitpick but doesn't "any set of laws or moralities" imply that she got rid of morals and law altogether? If she'd have wanted to imply that she cast aside her old set, wouldn't it be rather "some set of laws and moralities"?

What she said was in essence that survival of humanity is more important than law and morality. My counter was that without law and morality humanity is lost already.


I'm not disagreeing with your premise any more than I'm agreeing with Ms. Polevhia's - or vice versa.

However, laws and morality are not stagnant, static things. While they might change slowly - over centuries or even millennia - they do inevitably change in response to a variety of social pressures.

How do the laws of one empire or faction hope to apply to capsuleers and clone soldiers in the current day? How will they apply or need to adapt to the possibilities of tomorrow, the next year, the next decade or the next century?

What ethical considerations and morals are essential to our concepts of humanity and which are we free to discard?
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#59 - 2013-09-12 00:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Natalcya Katla
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Law serves justice and justice is only possible if there is moral authorship of actions by individuals.

Law serves social order. "Justice" is only valuable to the extent to which it contributes to maintain a stable society.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-09-12 01:16:30 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:

Whether something's counter-productive or not usually depends on the goal. In this case, I proved what I'd hoped to - that if the embers are stoked in the right way there's still some fire there, which is a welcome contrast to the usual mask of superficial banality and cliched disinterest that you take such care to fashion.

You actually rose to the bait for the first time I can remember in a very long time. Good for you.

Whether you rise to the challenge remains to be seen.



Neither you nor anyone in your little merry band are capable of stoking much fire in anyone, sweety.

A forum response to your statement is not quite the great fire rising/ bait taking sort of thing you seem to imagine it to be.

If you really want fire though, you and yours can find me in the Kingdom. Just use your friendly neighborhood agent locator and have a go at your earliest convenience. Bring friends, bring body bags.

Anyway, this is a TSF thread (sort of), so if you have further issues with myself make a new thread and perhaps keep this one on topic. Have a lovely evening otherwise *smile*




Sabik now, Sabik forever