These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Consequences (?)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#121 - 2013-09-07 20:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
S Byerley wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You didn't even know it was a strawman until it was pointed out to you, hence the word "accidental".


Making an ambiguous statement and making a straw man argument are very different thing. For starters, the attention payed to the former tends to fall off with the level of discourse because it's easier for the other party to interpret what you meant (by giving you the benefit of doubt) than for both of you to express complex topics with no ambiguity.


S Byerly wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game?
Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?


strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted. Your 20 minutes was an accidental strawman, it was a weak argument that was easily refuted, you just didn't know it at the time. There's nothing ambiguous at all about what you said.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dave Stark
#122 - 2013-09-07 20:36:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
doesn't require the freighter to even have loot in its hold

in the same way an isk doubling scam doesn't require any one to give you isk...
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#123 - 2013-09-07 20:37:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Perhaps you can explain the basis of the ridicule if the frequency is inconsequential?


you, or some one else, implied that the frequency was something that it wasn't and as such that it was important. clearly, it isn't, hence why we were poking fun at the comment.


A. No one implied it, thus "straw man".

B. I explicitly argued that frequency wasn't relevant.

C. Even if you were arguing that frequency wasn't important, that's still commenting on the frequency. Perhaps you'd like to withdraw your original contention? I'd hate to have misrepresented you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#124 - 2013-09-07 20:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Tippia wrote:
Zappity wrote:
NPC navies and CONCORD should pod criminal (or at least -10) players if they catch them.
Why?


1. Spice things up a bit. Mechanics are utterly predictable and working with them is routine.
2. Career criminals should be capable of the extra challenge.
3. Add a bit of risk to make things interesting.
4. Consequences. It's all about choice, you know?
5. Teach high sec dwellers about warping their pod.

And, of course:

6. Why not?

Take your pick.

7. For extra points, add a new insta-lock NPC frigate with low spawn chance. Maybe they could point your pod, offer to ransom (call it a fine) and then roll the dice to see whether they honour it or not.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dave Stark
#125 - 2013-09-07 20:40:44 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Perhaps you can explain the basis of the ridicule if the frequency is inconsequential?


you, or some one else, implied that the frequency was something that it wasn't and as such that it was important. clearly, it isn't, hence why we were poking fun at the comment.


A. No one implied it, thus "straw man".

B. I explicitly argued that frequency wasn't relevant.

C. Even if you were arguing that frequency wasn't important, that's still commenting on the frequency. Perhaps you'd like to withdraw your original contention? I'd hate to have misrepresented you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


A) you're right, it wasn't an implication. they flat out said "it happens" which is even more hilarious.

B) i don't really care what you did or didn't argue, it's irrelevant.

C) good job i wasn't arguing either way and i was just making fun of such a hilariously incorrect comment.

you're good at misrepresenting things, why would i stop you doing the only thing you're actually good at?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#126 - 2013-09-07 20:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Anyway ignoring the trolls who are apparently incapable of logic in their replies (and who are terrible at math causing them to get fired from their job)
Uncalled for, untrue, and you still can't tell the difference between profit margin and markup

Pray tell me, if I buy something for $2 and sell it for $100 how much profit margin have I made?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-09-07 20:42:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Anyway ignoring the trolls who are apparently incapable of logic in their replies (and who are terrible at math causing them to get fired from their job)
Uncalled for, untrue, and you still can't tell the difference between profit margin and markup

Pray tell me, if I buy something for $2 amd sell it for $100 how much profit margin have I made?

No one was talking about profit margin.. I clearly said 5000% reduction in costs to gank...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#128 - 2013-09-07 20:42:47 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
stuff


this is your fault, you mentioned his name and now he's here.
what the hell have you done?
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#129 - 2013-09-07 20:43:04 UTC
Rey Ajaichi wrote:
...i don't want empire to be a totally safe place...


It sounds like you do.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2013-09-07 20:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
S Byerley wrote:
A. No one implied it, thus "straw man".
True enough. You didn't imply it, but outright stated it as fact.

Quote:
B. I explicitly argued that frequency wasn't relevant.
It was very relevant in the thread where you stated it.

Zappity wrote:
1. Spice things up a bit. Mechanics are utterly predictable and working with them is routine.
2. Career criminals should be capable of the extra challenge.
3. Add a bit of risk to make things interesting.
4. Consequences. It's all about choice, you know?
5. Teach high sec dwellers about warping their pod.

And, of course:

6. Why not?
1. Changing this does not spice things up — it is just as predictable, only now it disincentivises piracy for no good reason.
2. At best a reason against not implementing it, but not a reason for implementing it. Why is more challenge needed?
3. Why is more risk needed?
4. There are already consequences. Why are more needed? It offers no more choice than before, though.
5. This is already taught plenty by gankers. Why should NPCs take over the role of players?
6. Because you haven't explained why it should happen.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#131 - 2013-09-07 20:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Anyway ignoring the trolls who are apparently incapable of logic in their replies (and who are terrible at math causing them to get fired from their job)
Uncalled for, untrue, and you still can't tell the difference between profit margin and markup

Pray tell me, if I buy something for $2 and sell it for $100 how much profit margin have I made?

No one was talking about profit margin.. I clearly said 5000% reduction in costs to gank...

When in fact it was a 98% reduction. I was wrong originally to use the examples I did, which doesn't alter the fact that you are crap at math.

100,000,000 cost to gank vs 2,000,000 cost to gank is not a 5000% reduction, it is a 98% reduction.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#132 - 2013-09-07 20:44:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
stuff


this is your fault, you mentioned his name and now he's here.
what the hell have you done?

I regret nothing P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#133 - 2013-09-07 20:44:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted. Your 20 minutes was an accidental strawman, it was a weak argument that was easily refuted, you just didn't know it at the time.


To make a straw man argument indicates intent to misrepresent. Obviously, you can't unintentionally intentionally do something. If you're trying for dry rhetorical humor I certainly can't fault you for that, but please stop trying to bend definitions to your whims.

Quote:
There's nothing ambiguous at all about what you said


There were quite a few ways it might have been interpreted if one desired to be silly.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2013-09-07 20:46:33 UTC
Did this just become that other thread?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#135 - 2013-09-07 20:46:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
stuff

this is your fault, you mentioned his name and now he's here.
what the hell have you done?

I regret nothing P

You should. You are a bad person.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#136 - 2013-09-07 20:48:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
A. No one implied it, thus "straw man".
True enough. You didn't imply it, but outright stated it as fact.


I neither implied it nor stated it as fact, sorry.

Quote:
Quote:
B. I explicitly argued that frequency wasn't relevant.
It was very relevant in the thread where you stated it.


If that's your opinion; it comes down to game design and I obviously disagree. The mining barge changes indicate that CCP disagrees as well, though obviously I can't infer their logic.
Dave Stark
#137 - 2013-09-07 20:48:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Did this just become that other thread?


pretty much.
Dave Stark
#138 - 2013-09-07 20:50:39 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
The mining barge changes indicate that CCP disagrees as well, though obviously I can't infer their logic.


considering fozzie has already said he isn't happy with exhumers and wants to revisit them eventually; i wouldn't use barges as any kind of evidence in that direction.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#139 - 2013-09-07 20:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
My apologies for trolling summoning the resident morons, It won't happen again Oops

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#140 - 2013-09-07 20:52:53 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
I neither implied it nor stated it as fact, sorry.
“[it] has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes”.
Just because your claim was questioned and disproven doesn't mean you didn't state is as a matter of fact.

Quote:
If that's your opinion; it comes down to game design and I obviously disagree.
It had nothing to do with game design, and everything to do with (incorrectly assumed) in-game behaviour of players.