Missions & Complexes

Raven Navy Issue vs. Scorpion Navy Issue vs. Golem;
Torps vs. Cruise Missiles;
Faction vs. T2 ammo.

TL;DR:RNI, SNI, and Golem with similar fitting were compared
in terms of time spent shooting to complete "Guristas Extravaganza".
The shooting time difference between the three ships is
insignificant. The time difference between T2 and faction ammo is
insignificant, though cost is significant. Torpedoes are faster than
Cruise Missiles in straight shooting time, but are useful only for short-
range missions. Target painters and rigs don't make much difference
in mission completion time, though are practically important (especially TP).

I have been very interested in L4 missions with these ships, and how
the changes in Odyssey have impacted them. I was inspired by Jester's
analysis of NRI vs SNI but wanted to know a lot more detail, so I did some
thorough modelling with all three of these ships. I was especially interested
in the difference between "paper" DPS and the actual number of discrete volleys
required to kill every ship. My modelling was conducted as follows:

1) "Time spent actively shooting missiles" was modelled. Dead flight time
e.g. to gates was not included.
2) Elite frigates were mostly ignored i.e. killed via drones.
3) Everything was killed
4) Assumed high-skill dedicated mission runner
5) Ships fit essentially the same: 3xfaction 1xT2 BCSs in low; AB,
2xTPs, 3x T2 hardeners and XLASB in mid; launchers in high.
6) Each fit has one t1 rigor and one t1 flare rig unless otherwise stated.
7) The modelling was conducted on an entire clear of "Guristas
Extravaganza" including bonus room, representing a large number of
ships of different classes.
8) Ships were assumed to be orbiting at their optimal range, and all
damage was calculated using kinetic missiles.
9) All damage was calculated using the missile damage formula,
including appropriate ship-specific rat resistances, velocity, sig
radius, etc.
10) Reloading was assumed to be accomplished during down time.
11) One missile type was used for the entire mission.
12) Rat self-repping is ignored.

Modelled results are consistent with my own real mission running with the
RNI (CN ammo).

Key to the reading the results by column:

GLM: Golem
RNI: Raven Navy Issue
SNI: Scorpion Navy Issue

CN: Caldari Navy ammo.
T2F: T2 Fury ammo.

1xTP: Every target is effectively painted with 1 RF Target painter.

218 vol: 218 total volleys to kill all but non-elite frigates

29.87min (CNL): total time in minutes using the Caldari Navy Launcher

30.70min(T2L): total time in minutes using the T2 Launcher

1.7m isk: total cost of all ammo in approximate Jita prices

(294 v): number of total volleys including killing elite frigates.

RESULTS:

Golem vs. RNI vs. SNI (CN Cruise Missiles):

GLM CN 1xTP: 218 vol, 29.87min (CNL), 30.70min (T2L), 1.7m isk, (294 v)
RNI CN 1xTP: 218 vol, 29.87min (CNL), 30.70min (T2L), 3.3m isk, (294 v)
SNI CN 1xTP: 293 vol, 30.08min (CNL), 30.97min (T2L), 3.3m isk, (407 v)

Using faction ammo, each ship takes very nearly 30 minutes to shoot
all rats. The difference between the ships is insignificant. The
difference in time between T2 and CN launchers is less than a
minute. The Golem saves about half in ammo cost. The SNI shoots many
more volleys, but only has six launchers, so the ammo cost is about
the same as the RNI.

Now let's remove the rigor and flare rigs.

GLMNRCN 1xTP: 220 vol, 30.13min (CNL), 30.98min (T2L), 1.7m isk, (316 v)
RNNR CN 1xTP: 221 vol, 30.28min (CNL), 31.12min (T2L), 3.4m isk, (317 v)
SNINRCN 1xTP: 297 vol, 30.50min (CNL), 31.38min (T2L), 3.4m isk, (445 v)

Interestingly, very little effective difference is noticed except for
total volleys including elite frigates.

Now we'll try T2 Fury ammo (with rigs back on)

GLM T2F 1xTP: 214 vol, XXX (CNL), 30.13min (T2L), 0.6m isk, (324 v)
RNI T2F 1xTP: 214 vol, XXX (CNL), 30.13min (T2L), 1.2m isk, (324 v)
SNI T2F 1xTP: 280 vol, XXX (CNL), 29.58min (T2L), 1.2m isk, (480 v)

CN Launcher can't launch T2 ammo of course. All ships are still very
close, though the SNI surprisingly pulls ahead with a half-minute
lead. Ammo costs are down to less than half. Golem and RNI are half a minute
slower with T2 ammo than with faction ammo.

We'll try a couple now with other ammos, just with the RNI.

RNI T1 1xTP: 244 vol, 33.43min (CNL), 34.37min (T2L), 0.3m isk, (320 v)
RNI T2P 1xTP: 244 vol, XXX (CNL), 34.37min (T2L), 1.0m isk, (302 v)

T2 Precision ammo and T1 ammo perform reasonably well -- certainly
better than I thought they would. It also appears that there is zero practical
benefit to T2P except for shooting elite frigates.

Now we'll try a set without the TP just to see how necessary it really
is:

GLM CN 0xTP: 221 vol, 30.28min (CNL), 31.12min (T2L), 1.7m isk, (317 v)
RNI CN 0xTP: 221 vol, 30.28min (CNL), 31.12min (T2L), 3.4m isk, (317 v)
SNI CN 0xTP: 302 vol, 31.00min (CNL), 31.92min (T2L), 3.4m isk, (450 v)

There isn't a huge difference here except for the elite frigate volley count.

Finally, let's look at Torpedoes! I'm just going to show Golem,
because the other ships are effectively the same (except ammo cost).

GLTP CN 1xTP: 211 vol, 25.15min (CNL), 25.88min (T2L), 2.0m isk, (307 v)
GLTPJT2 1xTP: 236 vol, XXXmin (CNL), 28.95min (T2L), 0.8m isk, (346 v)
GLTPRT2 1xTP: 179 vol, XXXmin (CNL), 21.95min (T2L), 1.0m isk, (313 v)

Faction ammo gains five minutes on CMs. Javelins (GLTPJT2) are quite a bit slower,
losing most of the gains over Cruise Missiles. Rage Torpedos (GLTPRT2), on the
other hand, gain another almost three minute lead over the faction ammo, and 8 minutes
total on cruise missiles.

cont'd

Now test in game and add the Rattlesnake to the list and watch ammo cost drop off a cliff.

Average ship losses drop off a cliff (( Noticed this was not figured in the isk/hr ratio over time ))
^^^ Also a big plus to the SNI you are "testing"

Watch the average time of mission drop hugely due to the over volley dps the other ships lose compared to the drones of the RS.

If you do this in game with perfect missile and drone skills you will see the RS wins by a mile across the board.

I have those very skill all L5 and have tested these very ships. (( Check certs if you need any proof ))

The RS is the only ship that can omni tank effectively without cutting into it's max dps. It may only save a small bit of time between missions but time is isk. (( Just another factor that EFT can't show you ))

The huge down side to the RS is the amount of SP needed to be effective.
Many pilots have moved on to incursions well before the 30 million sp needed in skills that effect the RS to fly it at such a high level. (( Meaning a toon that has any other skills will be around 40 mil sp before it shines. ))

It is this last reason that so many chose the mach to run L4's in due to it's much lower sp requirement to be effective. Added to the fact that on paper all that non landed DPS due to volleys doesn't show up. (( A.K.A. you can't compare them in EFT effectively ))

Excluding the RS I'd go SNI every time.
Mainly because it's the most forgiving for lower SP toons and if you are not flying a RS you are most likely less than 2 years into the game. (( 1 - 1 1/2 year toon being the tipping point ))

Why didn't I include the regular Raven the first time around?

Anyway, here's a quick look:

RV CN 1xTP: 293 vol, 30.08min (CNL), 30.97min (T2L), 3.3m isk, (407 v)
RV T2F 1xTP: 280 vol, XXXmin (CNL), 29.58min (T2L), 1.2m isk, (480 v)
RVTP T2R 1xTP: 274 vol, XXXmin (CNL), 25.20min (T2L), 2.2m isk, (532 v)

As I should have guessed, the standard Raven is bang-on right in the same range as all the rest in terms of practical killing speed for Cruise Missiles. Its launcher rate-of-fire bonus makes up for the missing launchers. Also, it has one free utility high where you could fit a DLA or something else. Torpedo damage isn't quite up to the others, but it's still reasonable.

The standard Raven does fall short of the RNI in a few categories, however. Note the horrendous number of missiles required to kill the elite frigates compared to the RNI. The RNI has a larger drone bay, more bandwidth, a little more capacitor, a bit faster flying, and faster lock times.

Perhaps most importantly, the RNI also features a fair bit more tank. In my testing, I've been able to handle every mission with the tank I described (3 x Hardener II, 1 x XLASB) with few problems, though the bonus room on Angels Extravaganza was interesting on the RNI. I would probably be brave enough to do it on the Raven, though I'd probably drop the second TP to improve the tank.

All good points. I will address them one at a time.

1) NPC defenders. This is a good point, and I've entirely ignored it. However, this can be included and I will look into implementing it. I imagine it will make some difference (maybe lots). According to stoicfaux's excellent post, it's complicated to do correctly, but I'll see what I can come up with to include this.

2) volley differences in SNI vs others. Yes, but the Scorpion volleys a fair bit faster, and this does seem to make up for a lot of it. We'll see what happens with defenders.

3) NPC mwd and AB, yes this is definitely something that makes a difference. I noticed this in actual mission testing on occasion, though it wasn't a huge deal. Additionally, though it won't affect all ships exactly equally, it will affect them all in the same direction.

4) Marauder "useless"? Well, no, it's not useless. More like "don't bother for missions". If you have one, plus the skill to use it already? Hey, go ahead, it's going to have some niche usefulness, but I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should sink ages of training to get the Marauders skill (which is 10x), and spend, what, 1.x billion isk on the ship just for missions, especially since its future utility for missions is at least in some doubt. If you will use it for its potential future mini-dread features, cool enough.

5) Fitting T2: The point is that they're all fit essentially the same, because you can fit them all essentially the same. In the actual case I've modelled, I've fit them with: 3xCN BCS, 1xBCS II, 2xRF TP, and then launchers -- this is a very common damage setup for missile BS. The relative damage will scale about the same on the different ships as you change the bling level (as long as you do it the same on each ship, and not drastically). There will be some minor non-linearities of course as you stack into varying degrees of diminishing returns, but by that point you're so far into diminishing returns that the non-linearities are virtually unnoticeable. Though honestly, aside from a 4th CN BCS, I'm not sure how much blingier the DPS can get...

Tank isn't really the issue here, though a non-bling tank is easily sufficient for a skilled pilot in almost any L4 in either of the three "big" ships. I only ever use 3x hardener and a XLASB for my tank. If I'm feeling fancy I might fit Pith C hardeners, but it's certainly not necessary. Heck, I only ever use regular non-navy 400 charges in the XLASB. I generally fit my mission ships pretty cheap, and part of the point for this exercise was to see if I was losing out significantly by e.g. taking T2 launchers over CN, or whatever.

6) Time to mission. Yes, this is certainly the ultimate measurement, though one issue is that, for every person and every situation it's going to be highly variable. I think my point with this investigation is that there probably is no one ship that's going to make a truly big difference in your mission running. Another point is that there isn't really a huge difference between similar fits (zomg you MUST fit rigors!). You're probably going to notice more difference in your time-to-mission by streamlining everything else, like your salvage time (if you do that), or by choosing your mission system so you don't have 100 AU warps to get across the system every time (hah), or even by choosing the ship that allows you to fly most "naturally", whatever that is.

"4) Marauder "useless"? Well, no, it's not useless. More like "don't bother for missions". If you have one, plus the skill to use it already? Hey, go ahead, it's going to have some niche usefulness, but I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should sink ages of training to get the Marauders skill (which is 10x), and spend, what, 1.x billion isk on the ship just for missions, especially since its future utility for missions is at least in some doubt. If you will use it for its potential future mini-dread features, cool enough."

I am very excited with the up coming marauder change. I think it is a positive change for pve, especially for golem. maybe it will be viable to go 4tp with the massive tank during the bastion mode. it will probably 1 shot all frigates with navy cruise or precision.

also, what l4 mission are you using in that program to get all this data? we should compare that mission time with the real in game mission time to see if it is close. if not, then we know the program is not reliable.

Honestly, I don't t get the point of this thread.

All caldari missiles BS's are roughly the same - dmg-wise. Why should there be a huge difference to begin with?

CSV of NPC ships stats: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNZ2pJUldPbG1qRE0/edit?usp=sharing

This is from when NPC stats were included in CCP's data dump. Thus this data is old and doesn't include new NPCs such as sleepers.

It does contain defender launch chances and NPC repair rates/chances/cycles for better modeling.

Right. And this was me testing it. I see a lot of argument over the "best" fit for whatever Caldari missile ship, and how one is "obviously" so vastly superior, and that you're wasting so much time etc not using super bling fits etc. But it ain't so.



Haha. Thanks -- but yes, it must be certainly taken within a context. Heck, this was only for Guristas Extravaganza.



Yep, another good angle. I did vary the rigors/flares for the R/S setups though I didn't fully follow them or show all the results. The short story is that rigors/flares didn't make much difference except for the elite frigates. Actually, elite frigates results were the main difference between all the ships by far -- assuming you're shooting them with cruise missiles, which you probably aren't most of the time.

Thrusters, on the other hand, will make all those volleys happen a little faster, which will reliably reduce shooting time about the same for each ship.



Actually, though I didn't show it, the difference between 1xTP and 2xTP on everything but elite frigates is negligible -- it's smaller than the difference between 1xTP and 0xTP (which I showed in the very first post: e.g. RNI CNL, 218 vol vs. 221 vol). On my ships I fit 2 TP simply to always have one up for the next ship, but I rarely use more than 1 except if I shoot at elite frigates.

FUTURE WORK??

Well.. maybe? My own personal questions have been answered, though I have been asked to include Arbalests. I will do this when I get a few minutes.

Well, RS is a whole other thread and ton more modelling, and I'll say nothing about it either way except that I do like RS for a pilot who has all the skills.

Also, jamming is an interesting one too. Though I must say that it has been a year or two since jamming really impacted me. There was that update a couple years ago that turned Guristas into a perma-jamming horror show, but it seems to be much less now? I get the odd (L4 mission) jam here or there but nothing to worry about, and certainly nothing to make me feel a need for ECCM. Though this is on the RNI plus 4 levels of the new pilot ECCM skill. Maybe the Golem pilots can say something?



This is from Guristas Extravaganza. I've run this several times since the original post, and as far as I can possibly quantify, it's consistent with my modelling. The number of volleys to kill every ship (the truly important metric here) is exactly what it should be in almost all cases.

There are some discrepancies, however, and my actual mission count is say 15 volleys higher than the model. These are easily explained. I often shoot down the trigger frigates, whereas my modelling usually assumes they're killed by drones. Also, this "last bit of hull has huge resistance" bug shows up a lot. Finally, sometimes if I'm not paying attention I'll lob an extra useless volley at a really distant target, or maybe the ship will be travelling at a higher velocity than its typical orbit, etc.

Anyway, this underscores an important point: I am not modelling "mission time" here. This is a straight-up comparison of ship vs. ship in terms of number of volleys (and time to lob them) to clear out a mission. Actual mission time is going to depend on a LOT more than this, including such things as: time you spend tending to drones, time you spend flying to gates, time you spend commuting to your mission area, time you spend refitting your ship, time you spend salvaging (or not), and countless more. In practice, all of these things are going to be WAY more important than say 3 Caldari BCS vs. 4 Caldari BCS.

I have to disagree here, i run a torp golem myself and at around 800dps(3x tp, javelins, drones not included) i can shoot, loot and salvage at the same time and usually finish mopping up just as i kill the last rat. Spending the extra 5-10 minutes to reship and going through the mission again would hurt my isk/hour more than not returning at all