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Liberalism and Adversity

Author
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#61 - 2013-09-06 23:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
You all miss a fine point: You, the immortals, can't change the game; you can't impede the scale or extent of little uniform games endorsed by the Assembly provided within these wars and you can't make a difference in the slightest in terms of any of these societies and the figures behind them. You can trust in the CSM to make their appeals to the CONCORD Assembly but we all know how often these matters get considered.

These days, people care more about their own power and means of destruction over the matters in the world of the lesser (non-capsuleer) society. Until that changes, wake up, remember you're ALL not able to make a difference. You can choose to profit or squabble within the system, or simply leave that to someone else to do.

Nothing changes, even if all of us were to retract from these conflicts and the bickering, no matter who it is you're fighting for.

At least in some light to each of us, our intentions are noble.


Your words may be true in Empire space, but if you fly out to nullsec like me the situation is the polar opposite.


Who stands to profit in nullsec?

You? Your corp? Your alliance?

Last I looked, nullsec is where capsuleers prosper, not the four empires. You prove my point exactly.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-09-06 23:18:34 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
You all miss a fine point: You, the immortals, can't change the game; you can't impede the scale or extent of little uniform games endorsed by the Assembly provided within these wars and you can't make a difference in the slightest in terms of any of these societies and the figures behind them. You can trust in the CSM to make their appeals to the CONCORD Assembly but we all know how often these matters get considered.

These days, people care more about their own power and means of destruction over the matters in the world of the lesser (non-capsuleer) society. Until that changes, wake up, remember you're ALL not able to make a difference. You can choose to profit or squabble within the system, or simply leave that to someone else to do.

Nothing changes, even if all of us were to retract from these conflicts and the bickering, no matter who it is you're fighting for.

At least in some light to each of us, our intentions are noble.


Your words may be true in Empire space, but if you fly out to nullsec like me the situation is the polar opposite.


Who stands to profit in nullsec?

You? Your corp? Your alliance?

Last I looked, nullsec is where capsuleers prosper, not the four empires. You prove my point exactly.


I suppose so, but only partially. You did say that capsuleers cannot change how things are, yet in nullsec that's exactly what we do on a regular basis. Things can change and they do very often, the map of nullsec say, three years ago is very different than it is now.

What I'm trying to get at is that I feel your second paragraph conflicts with your first one. Would you care to elaborate on this?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#63 - 2013-09-06 23:23:29 UTC
I believe she's talking about capsuleers being unable to affect non-capsuleers, especially in the context of the CEWPA wars. Although I strongly disagree with her, I would argue that null-sec politics and actions have the least effect of all on non-capsuleers than what goes on in the major empires.

-Eran
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-09-06 23:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
5. What good is a forest if all of the trees are dead? What good is a machine if all of the parts are rusty? What good is a meal if all of the ingredients are spoiled? How could you work towards a greater good if all of the "lesser" goods are never completed? You can't build a tower starting from the top floor.


I'm going to ignore the rest because at this point you're just repeating assertions rather than supporting them. this at least is a philosophical point I can sink my teeth into.

What good are parts if not assembled into a machine? What good are ingredients if they don't result in a meal? A tower needs a top floor in order to BE a tower. How much value does a word have relative to the whole sentence?

While each component part may be important, interesting, useful or whatever, it's the structure they form overall that is actually worth a damn.

The relationship is symbiotic. you need the ground floor to hold the top floor where it is. you need the parts to make a machine. But if I pull an ordinary power conduit out of my ship then the ship itself contains spares, or my engineers can jury-rig a replacement, and the ship carries on flying. If I lost ALL my power conduits then I no longer have a functioning ship, it's true... but if I lose the ship, then all those conduits become useless by default. One is more important than the other, despite being composed of and dependent upon the other.

Collective need trumps individual need. That's heiian.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-09-06 23:43:15 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
5. What good is a forest if all of the trees are dead? What good is a machine if all of the parts are rusty? What good is a meal if all of the ingredients are spoiled? How could you work towards a greater good if all of the "lesser" goods are never completed? You can't build a tower starting from the top floor.


I'm going to ignore the rest because at this point you're just repeating assertions rather than supporting them. this at least is a philosophical point I can sink my teeth into.

What good are parts if not assembled into a machine? What good are ingredients if they don't result in a meal? A tower needs a top floor in order to BE a tower. How much value does a word have relative to the whole sentence?

While each component part may be important, interesting, useful or whatever, it's the structure they form overall that is actually worth a damn.

The relationship is symbiotic. you need the ground floor to hold the top floor where it is. you need the parts to make a machine. But if I pull an ordinary power conduit out of my ship then the ship itself contains spares, or my engineers can jury-rig a replacement, and the ship carries on flying. If I lost ALL my power conduits then I no longer have a functioning ship, it's true... but if I lose the ship, then all those conduits become useless by default. One is more important than the other, despite being composed of and dependent upon the other.

Collective need trumps individual need. That's heiian.


I don't believe I was repeating myself, but I am sincerely sorry if you felt that I was.

If you lose the ship, those conduits still have value. Some may survive the destruction of the ship and thus, still retain value. It's why salvaging is such a lucrative business. Even when the whole ship dies, some parts my still remain. These parts can be used to make another ship once more. It's not uncommon, for one component of a ship to see service in many different ships.

In this case, the whole can die, but the individual can remain. The individual can function without the whole, but the whole cannot function without the individual.



Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-09-06 23:44:09 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
I believe she's talking about capsuleers being unable to affect non-capsuleers, especially in the context of the CEWPA wars. Although I strongly disagree with her, I would argue that null-sec politics and actions have the least effect of all on non-capsuleers than what goes on in the major empires.

-Eran


If this is what she is saying, then she would certainly be correct.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#67 - 2013-09-06 23:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Isis Dea wrote:

Who stands to profit in nullsec?

You? Your corp? Your alliance?

Last I looked, nullsec is where capsuleers prosper, not the four empires.


That depends on where in nullsec they are, why they are out there, who they are working for, and what they are doing out there.

In most cases you are correct. Capsuleers exist in nullsec purely for their own goals and profits. In isolated cases, the opposite is true. In some cases, capsuleers represent a relatively safe and efficient method of extending the influence of a supporting non-capsuleer nation to which the group is loyal.

Katrina Oniseki

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#68 - 2013-09-07 00:54:05 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
You all miss a fine point: You, the immortals, can't change the game; you can't impede the scale or extent of little uniform games endorsed by the Assembly provided within these wars and you can't make a difference in the slightest in terms of any of these societies and the figures behind them. You can trust in the CSM to make their appeals to the CONCORD Assembly but we all know how often these matters get considered.

These days, people care more about their own power and means of destruction over the matters in the world of the lesser (non-capsuleer) society. Until that changes, wake up, remember you're ALL not able to make a difference. You can choose to profit or squabble within the system, or simply leave that to someone else to do.

Nothing changes, even if all of us were to retract from these conflicts and the bickering, no matter who it is you're fighting for.

At least in some light to each of us, our intentions are noble.


Your words may be true in Empire space, but if you fly out to nullsec like me the situation is the polar opposite.


Who stands to profit in nullsec?

You? Your corp? Your alliance?

Last I looked, nullsec is where capsuleers prosper, not the four empires. You prove my point exactly.


I suppose so, but only partially. You did say that capsuleers cannot change how things are, yet in nullsec that's exactly what we do on a regular basis. Things can change and they do very often, the map of nullsec say, three years ago is very different than it is now.

What I'm trying to get at is that I feel your second paragraph conflicts with your first one. Would you care to elaborate on this?


No 24th Crusader can bark on the doors of the Empress, no capsuleer has ever been allowed audience with Heth, no capsuleer has been able to defend Karin Midular (prior to her demise) and her envisioned Republic.

The matters voiced by our community via CSM to the Assembly dwell over affairs within capsuleer alliances, our warfare mechanics, and what goes on under the bulkheads of our fine ships. Never do our parties bring these squabbles forward, especially where attention is due over the state of our nations and the conflicts we're allowed to have voice in.

So... At the end of the day we play pawns in a constantly changing game that profits us more than any of the baseliners of faction warfare.

Any grander purpose falls on deaf ears. Your voice at the end of the day is powerless except in the audience of other capsuleers. While this you could argue is an element of power or difference, nothing you say or do will affect future moves/statements from any of the parties you claim to so defend.

Except for the occasional medal statement made to those who "win" their little game.

Nothing changes. No voice is heard, no difference is made, you all stand for or against eachother in different ways but all the same; powerless to change the face of any matter under CONCORD's jurisdiction.

Nothing (in present day) changes this reality. Rather than squabble further, you should turn your talking points into formal addresses to the actual figures to blame, co-signing where due and wish for answers from figures actually in power.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#69 - 2013-09-07 01:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
I disagree, Dea. Case and point is when STRPO maintained complete warzone control for an extended period leading to the result of the auctioning of Federal systems. There's nothing to say greater differences and changes can't be made if done properly. With the inconsistency of capsuleers, it can be difficult for any empire or leader to take us seriously or trust us.

However, I do approve of petitions to the leaders of nations.

-Eran
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#70 - 2013-09-07 01:21:10 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
I disagree, Dea. Case and point is when STRPO maintained complete warzone control for an extended period leading to the result of the auctioning of Federal systems. There's nothing to say greater differences and changes can't be made if done properly. With the inconsistency of capsuleers, it can be difficult for any empire or leader to take us seriously or trust us.

However, I do approve of petitions to the leaders of nations.

-Eran


If you're auctioning to other capsuleers, I fail to see how you're impacting the four empires in the slightest.

In fact, if anything, you're expressing a lack of care for them in pursuit of your own wealth.

You clearly missed the point.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#71 - 2013-09-07 01:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
And you clearly lack some knowledge of recent history. The Federal systems were sold to the mega-corporations of Caldari State, not capsuleers. Ishukone bought Intaki which created quite a stir, bringing in Mordus Legion to police the system for them.

It's not the only example of capsuleers affecting non-capsuleers but I'd advise you do more research next time.

-Eran
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#72 - 2013-09-07 01:33:38 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
And you clearly lack some knowledge of recent history. The Federal systems were sold to the mega-corporations of Caldari State, not capsuleers. Ishukone bought Intaki which created quite a stir, bringing in Mordus Legion to police the system for them.

It's not the only example of capsuleers affecting non-capsuleers but I'd advise you do more research next time.

-Eran


Were these parties capsuleers? Or were you speaking to "representatives" of the mega-corporations?

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#73 - 2013-09-07 01:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Not capsuleers who bought them, not capsuleers who sold them. The capsuleers were the ones who occupied the systems for months to allow this to take place, thus affecting change.

-Eran

Edit : for your knowledge also see here
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#74 - 2013-09-07 01:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
I'd still argue capsuleers did not orchestrate the deal with Ishukone, nor did we interact with representatives of Mordus Legion. Were there even Mordus vessels parked off the gates and locking down the system?

It feels like still, at the end of the day, we don't have a say.

Perhaps in time, such an act gives me hope that our actions carry some echo within the dealings of the four empires, despite how painful it is to watch presently from the sidelines (wanted so painfully to be more involved with Karin Midular prior to her death, enough to feel betrayed as times have changed and one takes into account how much they've been able to matter).

To see a claimed system do more than generate LP for parties involved would bring a small smile to the dark world that is presently my life, regardless of who stands to gain from it.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#75 - 2013-09-07 02:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Capsuleers certainly did not orchestrate the deals, at least to my knowledge, but it doesn't change that such an action wouldn't have happened without the Caldari loyalist capsuleers and their resolve. It's been awhile since I've visited my old friends in Intaki but last I was there, Mordus were escorting Ishukone haulers in the system.

Even still, you can contact leaders in the major nations or organisations in the hope of achieving something greater. See here for a list.

Don't give up hope, I.Dea

-Eran
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#76 - 2013-09-07 02:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
How many common Workers/Voters/Faithful/Tribesmen get an audience with the CEP/Senate/Empress/Sanmatar?
How many of those people affect the course of their nation with their day to day lives?
How many of them have a significant say in what happens and what gets done?

Not many, I'd wager.

How many of them can provide jobs for thousands of people by setting up a starbase or planetary colony?
How many of them can stimulate a local market by docking a multi-million ISK starship that needs fuel, supplies, maintenance, repairs, and loading/unloading?
How many of them can turn the tide of an occupational war by leading a fleet into battle at the right time?
How many of them can fight piracy gun-to-gun in the asteroid belts and deadspace pockets?

Not many, I'd wager.

We're not the right hand of any Head of State. We're not demigods, or the final solution to what needs to be done. We don't get to decide who's elected the next Federation President, or what Kaalakiota is going to invest in next. We don't get to whisper things to the ear of the Empress, or sit in the Tribal Council meetings.

But we are leaders and catalysts of industry and change.

We are far from powerless. I hope one day you can realize and be comfortable with the powers you have been given, and stop seeking those you do not need.

Katrina Oniseki

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#77 - 2013-09-07 02:28:40 UTC
Midular changed much of that. Originally I was very content. Now, one just feels a hell lot more alone and insignificant than she's used to.

Maybe she got far more attached than she should have...

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-09-07 02:42:32 UTC
At this juncture, I would like to point out that you don't need to influence an entire empire to make a difference. My ministry is not, in even my extended lifetime, going to turn everyone in the cluster towards God. I would be lucky to even reach a handful of individuals. I may not be able to help all of the faithful. There have already been times where I have been too late, too slow, or not had the answers some sought. Acting on my own, I know for a fact that I will not change the entire universe.

Which doesn't mean I shouldn't try.

It isn't about making a universal difference. It's about making a small difference, sometimes a person at a time. In the grand scheme of things, it may be that this new line of work I've found myself in will grow into an even larger movement. I can't seem to bring myself to worry about that. All I know is that, even if I don't make a world of difference in the cluster, I'll make a difference to the few people I do get to help and save.

It might not be much, but it is my difference to make. Sometimes, we capsuleers forget that not being able to alter the events of governments does not mean our ability to do good and evil is not greatly magnified by how far we can travel and how much we can do. Our lives do matter, especially to those we touch.

It is something to keep in mind as we go about our business.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-09-07 03:57:37 UTC
Ailer Stane wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There are no 'Caldari' within the Federation.

There may be some descended from Caldari, but to be Caldari is to be a citizen of the State.

A frightening mindset that allows such logic.


Only if, as has been said, you think to determine membership in a political entity by such unrelated metrics as race or current domicile.

That's how you end up with riots and prejudice.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-09-07 06:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Makoto Priano wrote:



Gesakaarin-haani's love of Achuran shorthairs is fairly profound. I sometimes worry that she'd come for the lovely black shorthair I have in my quarters. Fortunately, though, it's a bit of a mongrel.


I fail to see what is so profound about having a love for Achuran shorthairs. They're quiet, intelligent and adorable creatures really. They also have such a pleasant method of purring when you provide them with the right amount of heavy petting.

Eran Mintor wrote:


When this happens, please send a cube or two my way. I've always wondered what Achuran shorthair pussies taste like...

-Eran


I'd say once they've been reprocessed as Class 3 biological waste and into protein cubes, then they'd taste like protein cubes. Which is to say, taste not much like anything at all.

Kurilaivonen|Concern