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@ Hilmar and Zulu. Care to elaborate?
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#121 - 2011-10-31 09:37:24 UTC
Teamosil wrote:


Think about it from a balance perspective. Already I think it's a pretty rough profession in terms of what you have to put into it and what you get out of it. If they started having to be as capable and attentive as 0.0 miners, there is no way that could still be considered balanced IMO.



Why not?

EVE is a game of survival of the fittest. Those who slap on some mining lasers and dont pay any attention deserve to have a harder time than those who do pay attention and takes steps to protect themselves.
Feilamya
#122 - 2011-10-31 10:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Feilamya
Lil' Miss Sunshine wrote:
Feilamya wrote:
Marcus Janus wrote:
PEOPLE DONT PLAY LIKE I DO WAAAAAAAAAAAH

On the contrary: People DO play the way I do: They hide behind the safety of highsec when they need to. The only difference between me and John Q. Carebear is that I know better than to fully rely on CONCORD to provide safety, so I take the necessary precautions. This, however, is nothing I need to be griefing about. If carebears are incompetent, it is their problem, not mine.

With the changes I proposed, people would have the opportunity NOT to play like I do. They would be able to take their safety into their own hands, rather than rely on CONCORD. It would open up for different styles of gameplay which are not possible at this time.

Embrace the sandbox!
Remove highsec! Remove CONCORD!


What this would do is force people to join big alliances for protection, become pets and drones and pretty much do what the almighty emperor desires you to do. If I wanted to play this playstyle I would have already been in null sec.


That's right, and "people" includes the gankers. These are a minority, so they would have a hard time keeping up what they used to do (ganking random miners for lulz instead of profit). A select few competent pilots would still be able to do it, but we wouldn't see the mindless ganking any more that we have today.

This would make the new "lawless highsec" very different from today's 0.0. It would be a much friendlier place. Consequently, the new "highsec alliances" would be much friendlier organizations than today's 0.0 powerblocks.

There are also ways to organize the protection of carebears without strict, hierarchic systems such as alliances. One such way would be a player-run bounty system. No changes to game mechanics would be required (particularly not to kill rights, which wouldn't exist any more anyway). We already have API-verifiable killmails. If all carebears invested part of their profits into a "bounty fund" from where bounties would be payed to PVPers (both freelancers and corps), shooting the bad guys would actually become profitable. But once again, this is not possible in highsec with its dumb, scripted pseudo police force and pseudo rules of engagement.

But wait ... did I just ask carebears to share their profits with others? Did I ask anti-social single-player basement kids to organize themselves? LOL!
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#123 - 2011-10-31 22:52:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Why not?

EVE is a game of survival of the fittest. Those who slap on some mining lasers and dont pay any attention deserve to have a harder time than those who do pay attention and takes steps to protect themselves.


I think you're thinking of survival of the fittest too simplistically. Ideally in a survival of the fittest scenario, you have the fittest players in the game competing against one another for the biggest rewards. That is balance- a situation where rewards are roughly proportional to the challenges you need to face to accumulate them. Most of the time that just works out naturally because both sides of a conflict offer roughly comparable rewards. A can flipper for example, makes maybe around the same level of rewards as the miner whose can he is flipping, so you have players with roughly comparable levels of ability and experience competing for those meagre rewards, while sov in a 0.0 system has the potential to create very large rewards, so you have alliances with comparable abilities and experience fighting over them. Survival of the fittest is only really meaningful in that sort of an arrangement. Even an extremely unfit player with 7 years of experience is going to beat even a super fit player with 1 week of experience every time.

But, here we may have an odd situation where there is a conflict where one side only gets very small rewards if they win, but the other side gets enormous rewards if they win. Miners that survive goonswarm make very small amounts of money, but the goonswarm makes hundreds of billions or trillions if they win. As a result, they're able to make the kinds of rewards they would ordinarily have to compete against another huge alliance to reap just by attacking newbies in mining barges. That isn't survival of the fittest really. It's more like taking advantage of a loophole to evade having your fitness tested.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#124 - 2011-10-31 23:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Feilamya wrote:
There are also ways to organize the protection of carebears without strict, hierarchic systems such as alliances. One such way would be a player-run bounty system.

This idea has already been put to rest.

1) Miners don't make enough to start hiring protection / pay bounties.
2) Even if they did, the ability to kill a ganker pre-emptively is not possible.

The only way this might work is to make ALL neg-status players in highsec flashy red INCLUDING those they fleet/corp with. Harboring and utilisation of vessels (once they are extracted from a ship bay) are also flashy red.

Lemme see that Orca light up, yeah baby!! woot \o/

You will also need to prevent neg-status players from biomassing.

It makes suicide ganking a consequential activity and no game mechanics ever need to change.

Reap what you sow.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2011-10-31 23:10:01 UTC
Teamosil wrote:


I think you're thinking of survival of the fittest too simplistically. Ideally in a survival of the fittest scenario, you have the fittest players in the game competing against one another for the biggest rewards. That is balance- a situation where rewards are roughly proportional to the challenges you need to face to accumulate them. Most of the time that just works out naturally because both sides of a conflict offer roughly comparable rewards. A can flipper for example, makes maybe around the same level of rewards as the miner whose can he is flipping, so you have players with roughly comparable levels of ability and experience competing for those meagre rewards, while sov in a 0.0 system has the potential to create very large rewards, so you have alliances with comparable abilities and experience fighting over them. Survival of the fittest is only really meaningful in that sort of an arrangement. Even an extremely unfit player with 7 years of experience is going to beat even a super fit player with 1 week of experience every time.

But, here we may have an odd situation where there is a conflict where one side only gets very small rewards if they win, but the other side gets enormous rewards if they win. Miners that survive goonswarm make very small amounts of money, but the goonswarm makes hundreds of billions or trillions if they win. As a result, they're able to make the kinds of rewards they would ordinarily have to compete against another huge alliance to reap just by attacking newbies in mining barges. That isn't survival of the fittest really. It's more like taking advantage of a loophole to evade having your fitness tested.


I would call it effective market warfare. There is nothing stopping the people of empire from banding together and waging war, camping stations, gates and belts while destroying towers.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#126 - 2011-10-31 23:11:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I would call it effective market warfare. There is nothing stopping the people of empire from banding together and waging war, camping stations, gates and belts while destroying towers.


My point is that there IS something stopping anybody with the skills and resources required to oppose them from doing it- there is no reward in it, so nobody with those skills or resources would be interested in doing it. There is only reward on one side of the conflict. That's why it is so imbalanced.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2011-10-31 23:18:56 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I would call it effective market warfare. There is nothing stopping the people of empire from banding together and waging war, camping stations, gates and belts while destroying towers.


My point is that there IS something stopping anybody with the skills and resources required to oppose them from doing it- there is no reward in it, so nobody with those skills or resources would be interested in doing it. There is only reward on one side of the conflict. That's why it is so imbalanced.


Whats to stop them from taking over what the goons are currently doing?
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2011-10-31 23:34:40 UTC
Concord should start podding people with -10.0 security status. I don't really have a problem with suicide ganking. I just think it would be funny.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#129 - 2011-10-31 23:38:17 UTC
Dalloway Jones wrote:
Concord should start podding people with -10.0 security status. I don't really have a problem with suicide ganking. I just think it would be funny.

As long as prevention of recycling neg-status alts was automated.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#130 - 2011-11-01 01:36:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Whats to stop them from taking over what the goons are currently doing?


The goons control the 0.0 space where oxygen isotopes are produced, so by preventing ice from being mined in the hi sec space where they are produced they can box out all production of oxygen isotopes. They bought up a ton of the isotopes before declaring the campaign and are selling them now at double what they paid for them. Nobody could pull that off without controlling a swath of 0.0 that includes all of the ice belts of a particular type.
Gealla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2011-11-01 02:08:44 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Cypermethren wrote:



Why continualy allow the people whom just want to be left alone, to play a game they enjoy the way they want to be. all they want is to be left alone to have fun by themselves.



because catering to lone wolves in a MMOG is counter productive
and catering to anti-pvp lone wolves in a pvp-centric MMOG is laughable

if you want peace go play minecraft in easy mode

Should make this post a sticky. Save you having to type it over and over and over and over.... [add Wow, kitty online ad nusaeum]


In fact they should put it on the front page of the website in big letters....do not play this game unless you are happy to get griefed continuosly until you learn the ropes..... watch the subcription numbers soar - great marketing plan ....

You know if everybody actually left the game when they got told to htfu or gtfo.... what would be left?
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2011-11-01 02:12:14 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
The goons control the 0.0 space where oxygen isotopes are produced

You're completely wrong and even if we did control space with a bunch of blue ice we don't mine.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2011-11-01 02:14:08 UTC
Gealla wrote:
In fact they should put it on the front page of the website in big letters....do not play this game unless you are happy to get griefed continuosly

Griefing is against the ToS and if you see somebody doing it you should report them.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Gealla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2011-11-01 02:23:07 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Gealla wrote:
In fact they should put it on the front page of the website in big letters....do not play this game unless you are happy to get griefed continuosly

Griefing is against the ToS and if you see somebody doing it you should report them.


Ahh but in Eve, one man's greifing is another man's Gudfight...can't report a person for gudfights hey?
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#135 - 2011-11-01 02:27:18 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
You're completely wrong and even if we did control space with a bunch of blue ice we don't mine.


I guess that's true that you don't control all the blue ice, but regardless, it isn't being mined out in 0.0 in significant amounts for sale in empire. I never claimed you were mining it. I'm sure you're not. Whoever is pulling the strings over there bought a boatload of it up before the campaign.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2011-11-01 02:29:04 UTC
-10 isnt really a penalty when u live in nullsec/lowsec. a 2nd account or friend can fill your orders at jita or w/e.
im ok with some concord upgrades or, mining ship/orca tank upgrades.

TBH the best solution is mining ships get more tank and no insurance pay for people who are concorded.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2011-11-01 02:29:42 UTC
Gealla wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Gealla wrote:
In fact they should put it on the front page of the website in big letters....do not play this game unless you are happy to get griefed continuosly

Griefing is against the ToS and if you see somebody doing it you should report them.


Ahh but in Eve, one man's greifing is another man's Gudfight...can't report a person for gudfights hey?

No griefing is griefing and CCP bans people for it.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2011-11-01 02:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ConranAntoni
Breaking the sandbox, one qq'ing group a time.


Seriously, increasing CONCORD to do more against suicide ganking? In real life, is someone punches you in the face, does a police officer jump out of the wall and stop the fist in mid air and slaps the attacker for being a naughty boy? No, he doesn't.

In a sandbox area, you are in effect, the one who is primarily incharge of your own protection. Yes, of course, you need some kind of protection, but the primary form you need is simply a brain or, god forbid me saying this, some basic knowledge of how to avoid being a target. Allow me to offer an example. A particular chap I know, has throughout the entire ice blockade, super tanked his hulk. He has continued mining gallente ice and has literally whored killmails while doing so when suicide gankers attack.

http://www.obsidianfront.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=3201


He has survived it, and even had fun out of this ****, purely as, and this is the remarkable thing, hes not a complete idiot. Unlike the mass majority of miners who seem to find it shocking that their t1 tanked hulks are being molested. Why, oh why, are CCP giving credence to the mass idiocy of those who don't have a clue how to handle their ships. Why.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#139 - 2011-11-01 02:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
ConranAntoni wrote:
Allow me to offer an example. A particular chap I know, has throughout the entire ice blockade, super tanked his hulk. He has continued mining gallente ice and has literally whored killmails while doing so when suicide gankers attack.

He has survived it, and even had fun out of this ****, purely as, and this is the remarkable thing, hes not a complete idiot. Unlike the mass majority of miners who seem to find it shocking that their t1 tanked hulks are being molested. Why, oh why, are CCP giving credence to the mass idiocy of those who don't have a clue how to handle their ships. Why.

lol. Too often used to even be funny any more but ya gotta.

Only two things saving his ass atm. Time and quantity. He will die. Eventually. You posting and boasting about it has probably sealed his fate.

A Hulk tank is finite. The amount of force that can be brought to bear is infinite.

It's got nothing to do with brains/skills yadda ya. To suggest 1 pilot out of 1500+ is the ONLY one with brains is quite laughable.

EDIT: I'll throw in 100m isk reward to a Goon that can paste the killmail on this guy's Hulk. Let's see how clever he is. Cool

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2011-11-01 02:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ConranAntoni
Point in case, hes not an idiot and has survived, while others have whined non stop. Hes aware he will die at some point. He simply prepares his ship in advance. Your case has no backbone to it. Increasing CONCORDs abilitys to save people from idiocy breaks the sandbox. People should die in highsec if someone wants to shoot at them and they've not bothered protecting themselves.


I consider it a form of natural selection. It's not like they *have* to die after all. They could simply not bother mining blue ice and mine other ice while Goonswarm has their lulz. Can't really blame them for their actions, at times eve is **** boring, so you need to spice it up. Miners for the meat grinder, well, thats comedy for everyone. **** most indies and miners I know **** themselves laughing at the rage they've witnessed.



As the old adage goes, don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it. And if you intend to, make sure you tank it properly or be ready to become the laughing stock of anyone with a basic grasp of ship fittings.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.