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Time for captcha ingame?
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Tivookempireslave
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-09-03 05:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tivookempireslave
Hello there.

I think there's a problem on the market in EVE, and that problem is that some individuals are using bots in order to undercut their competition.

I have dozens of sell orders active, some have lots of competition some doesn't have any but what I've noticed is that some individuals are able to undercut the competition by 0.01 isk no matter what time it is.

It's literally 24/7, within minutes of me changing my order too.

Now, of course we could buy 1 unit of whatever the competition is selling and report them for suspicious behaviour but we all know how much work goes into actually banning a farmer or bot in this game. It's literally impossible and I've seen dozens of threads on bots not getting banned even though the evidence was super obvious and overwhelming.

What I propose is a very easy quick fix to the problem. How about being required to enter a captcha code if you change your market orders too many times in one hour?

Doesn't have to be captcha, could be questions like: how many people are in local? What system are you in?

Whatever, this would put a swift end to most of the market bot problems that plagues this game today.

I would not mind having to input a code if I change my market orders 20-30 times in one hour at all, I reckon the only people who will mind are the ones who are cheating.

TL;DR

Install a type of captcha code mechanism that forces you to input a code if you change your market orders too often.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-09-03 06:31:42 UTC
Only if we also get it when we want to activate modules in PvP.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-09-03 06:36:28 UTC
Tivookempireslave wrote:
Hello there.

I think there's a problem on the market in EVE, and that problem is that some individuals are using bots in order to undercut their competition.

I have dozens of sell orders active, some have lots of competition some doesn't have any but what I've noticed is that some individuals are able to undercut the competition by 0.01 isk no matter what time it is.

It's literally 24/7, within minutes of me changing my order too.

Now, of course we could buy 1 unit of whatever the competition is selling and report them for suspicious behaviour but we all know how much work goes into actually banning a farmer or bot in this game. It's literally impossible and I've seen dozens of threads on bots not getting banned even though the evidence was super obvious and overwhelming.

What I propose is a very easy quick fix to the problem. How about being required to enter a captcha code if you change your market orders too many times in one hour?

Doesn't have to be captcha, could be questions like: how many people are in local? What system are you in?

Whatever, this would put a swift end to most of the market bot problems that plagues this game today.

I would not mind having to input a code if I change my market orders 20-30 times in one hour at all, I reckon the only people who will mind are the ones who are cheating.

TL;DR

Install a type of captcha code mechanism that forces you to input a code if you change your market orders too often.

This actually would solve the problem and still not be too annoying for the real people playing market wars. +1

I'm just worried how long would it take for the bot softwares to evolve and understand those questions or captcha...
Tivook OneManSlave
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-09-03 11:35:06 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Tivookempireslave wrote:
Hello there.

I think there's a problem on the market in EVE, and that problem is that some individuals are using bots in order to undercut their competition.

I have dozens of sell orders active, some have lots of competition some doesn't have any but what I've noticed is that some individuals are able to undercut the competition by 0.01 isk no matter what time it is.

It's literally 24/7, within minutes of me changing my order too.

Now, of course we could buy 1 unit of whatever the competition is selling and report them for suspicious behaviour but we all know how much work goes into actually banning a farmer or bot in this game. It's literally impossible and I've seen dozens of threads on bots not getting banned even though the evidence was super obvious and overwhelming.

What I propose is a very easy quick fix to the problem. How about being required to enter a captcha code if you change your market orders too many times in one hour?

Doesn't have to be captcha, could be questions like: how many people are in local? What system are you in?

Whatever, this would put a swift end to most of the market bot problems that plagues this game today.

I would not mind having to input a code if I change my market orders 20-30 times in one hour at all, I reckon the only people who will mind are the ones who are cheating.

TL;DR

Install a type of captcha code mechanism that forces you to input a code if you change your market orders too often.

This actually would solve the problem and still not be too annoying for the real people playing market wars. +1

I'm just worried how long would it take for the bot softwares to evolve and understand those questions or captcha...


Well, it would hinder them for a while at least.

If CCP would include something like this it would be funny to measure the amount of market order changes from pre patch month to post patch month to see how many bots that actually were working around the clock.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#5 - 2013-09-03 11:43:51 UTC
You have dozens of orders? I have hundreds. And I definitely do not want captcha. The market interface is awful enough as it is.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tivook OneManSlave
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-09-03 12:45:40 UTC
Zappity wrote:
You have dozens of orders? I have hundreds. And I definitely do not want captcha. The market interface is awful enough as it is.


How is that market bot program working out for ya?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2013-09-03 14:54:39 UTC
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-09-03 15:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mycool Jahksn
Danika Princip wrote:
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.


Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS etc.

Also, do you really think it's THAT easy to fool captcha? It's enough to come up with a new type of captcha with different fonts every time and market bots would have problems immidiately.

My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.

There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-09-03 15:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Not that I doubt that bots exist, but....


...Have you ever considered that, when trading in a market with lots of competition, that at least one competitor is online and checking his orders at any given time? I've never noticed this botting behavior in lower-volume hubs.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2013-09-03 15:57:06 UTC
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.


So what's the maximum number of orders you've ever tried to manage at the same time? Fifty?

Yeah, I manage hundreds. Manually. Without a bot. Not as efficiently as I could -- because yes, I have a life -- but manually.

Captcha would be ******* infuriating. Every. Single. *******. Market. Change? You have to be kidding me. Updating orders would go from the onerous 40 minutes it is now to absolutely ******* hours.

tl;dr: this is a bad idea even by F&I standards.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-09-03 15:59:41 UTC
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.


Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS etc.

Also, do you really think it's THAT easy to fool captcha? It's enough to come up with a new type of captcha with different fonts every time and market bots would have problems immidiately.



I cannot read around a third of captchas I have to deal with. I do not have problems with my eyesight, and am typing them in my native language.

Why, exactly, should I have to struggle with something a bot could breeze though with ease every single time I want to use the market? Why should people with worse eyesight then me suffer? Why do you want to actively ENCOURAGE the use of market bots?
Xeen Du'Wang
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-09-03 16:14:16 UTC
No way... I only have about 50 orders running at this time... and that is until I have all my junk sold then Im out (just getting junk sold)

I dont play the market.

My god would captcha be annoying if you had to use it for every order... or every 5 orders for that matter. It would make sure Im out permanently.
Icarus fall
What Shall We Call It
#13 - 2013-09-03 16:19:27 UTC
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.


Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS etc.

Also, do you really think it's THAT easy to fool captcha? It's enough to come up with a new type of captcha with different fonts every time and market bots would have problems immidiately.




It would also kill anyone who plays the market having to enter a captcha every time they changed an order. CCP has been trying to remove the really tedious useless parts of eve for years, adding a feature that would be the most tedious of all is insane. Soon you will be saying we shouldn't have grouped guns cause they all can be fired with one click of a button.
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-09-03 17:17:06 UTC
Icarus fall wrote:
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.


Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS etc.

Also, do you really think it's THAT easy to fool captcha? It's enough to come up with a new type of captcha with different fonts every time and market bots would have problems immidiately.




It would also kill anyone who plays the market having to enter a captcha every time they changed an order. CCP has been trying to remove the really tedious useless parts of eve for years, adding a feature that would be the most tedious of all is insane. Soon you will be saying we shouldn't have grouped guns cause they all can be fired with one click of a button.


Did you even read what the OP wrote?

Only if you change your market orders too often should a captcha be required. Human beings, most of us, don't sit in Jita adjusting our market orders 24 hours a day. Most of us wouldn't even be affected.

My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.

There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth.
Icarus fall
What Shall We Call It
#15 - 2013-09-03 17:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus fall
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Icarus fall wrote:
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And on week later, when all the market bots have been patched, you're left with thousands of players who get pissed off by the bloody things.

Bots are better at captcha than humans are. All putting the things in would do is drive players out, while the bots just kept on going.

As for the questions, tell me. What language would they be in? And what about the players who don't speak them? We have Russian, German and Japanese clients, but what about the French? the Spanish? The Hungarians, Polish, Koreans, and whoever the hell else plays?

tl:dr, biomass yourself.


Knowing what I know about the EVE community it's safe to say we're not stupid. If you actually think people would have great trouble understanding how to input a captcha code or something similar not only are you incredibly stupid but you should biomass yourself instead because foolish people should not be allowed to mate for the good of humanity.

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS etc.

Also, do you really think it's THAT easy to fool captcha? It's enough to come up with a new type of captcha with different fonts every time and market bots would have problems immidiately.




It would also kill anyone who plays the market having to enter a captcha every time they changed an order. CCP has been trying to remove the really tedious useless parts of eve for years, adding a feature that would be the most tedious of all is insane. Soon you will be saying we shouldn't have grouped guns cause they all can be fired with one click of a button.


Did you even read what the OP wrote?

Only if you change your market orders too often should a captcha be required. Human beings, most of us, don't sit in Jita adjusting our market orders 24 hours a day. Most of us wouldn't even be affected.



I did and when I go to jita to sell things I bring lots of things and market warrior 0.1isk them till they are all gone. I dont go 25 jumps to jita to sell one thing or one stack of things


edit: nor do I go to jita to sit in Jita for days to wait for things to sell
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2013-09-03 17:28:15 UTC
Your solution is not to make things tedious with capcha, or however it is spelled.

You just need to automate the update process.

Put simply, have an option to make your selling item automatically be 1% or 1 ISK below all other competition, whichever is the larger amount.

Everyone wins.

Now, for those who missed the wicked humor here, imagine if two of these were active at the same time against each other.

The solution for this is to set a base cost, where the price will not drop below.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Luc Chastot
#17 - 2013-09-03 17:35:07 UTC
No, thank you.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-09-03 18:50:58 UTC
No.

Look at the evolution of captcha in general. Bot programs are designed by people, who learn and adapt. Hence bots learn and adapt. Each generation of captcha becomes harder and harder to decipher even for a human.

No.

Horrible idea.

Biomass yourself.

Really.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-09-03 19:21:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Abyss Azizora
Actually I support the idea, and I also have hundreds of market orders across three characters. As long as it only kicks in after so many edits to the price in such a timeframe. (Would help remove/hinder bots and the 0.01 isk battles somewhat.) Under those circumstances I support it.

I can understand some people hating this that actually don't use bots, but those are the people who sit in jita 24/7 and that's the entire game for them. I actually feel sorry for them, they are glorified fleshy calculators that can't enjoy life.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2013-09-03 19:24:23 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Actually I support the idea, and I also have hundreds of market orders across three characters. As long as it only kicks in after so many edits to the price in such a timeframe. (Would help remove/hinder bots and the 0.01 isk battles somewhat.) Under those circumstances I support it.

I can understand some people hating this that actually don't use bots, but those are the people who sit in jita 24/7 and that's the entire game for them. I actually feel sorry for them, they are glorified fleshy calculators that can't enjoy life.



Yeah, bots never adapt to captcha...which is why captcha haven't changed since their introduction...oh wait.....

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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