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State Protectorate in total disarray.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2013-09-03 23:18:47 UTC
Capsuleer participation in the 3rd Battle of Caldari Prime actually had an outcome. An effect. A point.

I'm not sure how what we do in Black Rise directly affects the war effort - except that whilst the enemy fights to capture State property it behoves us to fight back for it.

But, yeah, what Evi said. Damn few members of either militia seem to be in it for the right reasons.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-09-03 23:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Anabella Rella wrote:
Pilot Fredbug are you aware of the ancient saying "Those who are willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither"? Do you understand the implications of and consequences for permanently giving up fundamental rights in exchange for a group's or organization's promise of temporary protection?

History shows that when societies abdicate their freedoms it's nearly impossible to regain them.

My hope is that come the next round of elections that the people will rectify their mistake and place into power those who will protect them while also respecting and safeguarding their rights as citizens.


It was either we gave up our freedoms, or we let them get taken away. What good are freedoms if you can't defend them? I don't like the Black Eagles either, but it has become clear that not only are outsiders trying to destroy us, but people in our very country. Think about it, Gallente citizens, some of them born and raised here want to see their own country destroyed. That is a truly frightening prospect.

We don't need to look over the borders to see threats and enemies, many of them are in our own backyard.

I think the Black Eagles are a step in the right direction. If they can be tweaked to a proper anti-terrorism/treason task force and not just a secret police I'm all for it. If done properly, the only people who have anything to fear are the wrongdoers. Of course, getting things actually done properly is where it gets difficult.

Kaid Hayden wrote:
Security from whom, the Caldari or our own Federation? We've already established that we don't have a reason to continue a war of aggression on the State. Other than the uses of the perpetual state of war to erode the civil liberties that separate us from the State.


There were traitors and Caldari sympathizers in our country before the war. What more after? With the Caldari on the run (for now at least) they have even more reason to act against their own government and people. Heth and his terrorist thugs are in hiding, which makes them just as deadly as they would be if they were in power. They could have agents in the Federation right now.

You could call me paranoid, but after the events that took place five years ago I've adopted an old saying "It's one thing to believe everyone is out to get you, it's another when it's actually true."

Motoko Kasaki wrote:
If I may contribute at this juncture, a secret police has its uses. They get things done, like it or not. Granted they don't always do the job cleanly or abide by due process, but that's largely due to the fact that the targets they hunt have often found a way to make a mockery of it. A secret police makes a far more effective deterrant than a uniformed police force for that very reason, because they are anonymous and can strike from pretty much anywhere at any time. If yon criminal is constantly looking over his shoulder for the CPD to come knocking on his door, he's going to be less willing to commit the large scale crimes that would draw thier ire. However the greatest strength of a secret police force, the ability to circumvent due process can also be it's greatest flaw, as we saw with the CPD. It was an organization with an immense amount of power in the State much like the Black Eagles continue to have, along with extra-legal authority. It was also outside the recognized Caldari military chain of command so thus it wasn't accountable for its actions to anyone other than Heth and his cronies.

As a result, the CPD became very dangerous very quickly, especially when you add the fact that humans will always be humans and ideology is not always the primary motivator of people who join such groups. That being said, as far as we've seen the CPD has been dismantled relatively quickly and painlessly, which is not at all what I expected given some of my co-workers' feelings about certain issues. Ultimately, organizations like the CPD will always be around and there's very little you can do to stop them.


As long as the Black Eagles have a very specific and set definition within Gallente society, we shouldn't have to fear them becoming something akin to the CPD. And they do have a set role, which is to find traitors and have them stopped. Granted, we should place more limits and restrictions on them, but nothing that would impede their mission. To be fair they actually do have limits and restrictions. After finding that they Havyner couple was innocent of their espionage charges they were released. However, at the hands of the Inquisition or CPD, being accused would be enough to deliver a sentence. Granted they were killed shortly after their release, but that delves into the realm of tinfoil hattery.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


All we ever wanted was Home. Job done - we made the price of recapturing it too high for you.

Why are we at war now? Damned if I know.


Simple, Roden is making a lot of money from this war, and the Megacorps are making a lot of money from this war. And long as the conflict stays primarily restricted to Low Security space it's most likely going to stay that way.

Capitalism is good in all, but it should be separate from the government or things like this happen. Just as the Church and State should remain separate, the Corporation and State should as well.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#43 - 2013-09-04 08:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
It was either we gave up our freedoms, or we let them get taken away. What good are freedoms if you can't defend them?


So instead of letting freedoms be taken away after fighting for them, you gave them up...yes, I ask you like you asked us; What good are freedoms if you can't defend them? And more to the point, why didn't you defend them?

People will try to destroy you regardless of where or who you are. They envy, despise, or seek to gain from you. This will never be avoided no matter who you are. However, this reality doesn't mean you should enact such principles that the Black Eagles push forth. For the Black Eagles to 'silence' (kill/torture) a mostly innocent civilian (they're not innocent simply because they got involved) since they seek to be a whistle-blower about the crimes and atrocities their Federation has committed, does not befit what I was told the Federal's seek to spread.

You can use just a few examples of extremists to push forth a campaign against any and all naysayers because they are being unpatriotic and are possible "threats" to your freedoms. At the same time you chip away at such freedoms because you have scared yourself so much you'd rather lose your freedoms than lose your life or welfare.

The Black Eagles are not the step in the right direction, even if they were labeled as an anti-terrorism, or anti-treason task force (though is that even much different than the way they're labeled now?).

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
If done properly, the only people who have anything to fear are the wrongdoers. Of course, getting things actually done properly is where it gets difficult.


Yes, the "wrongdoers" have much to fear. But should you say something, out of spite or anger, and it cause you to be labeled as a "wrongdoer," I feel your life will get much more....complicated. That's where your second statement of "getting things done properly is where it gets difficult" rings resoundingly true.

In the end, the Black Eagles and CPD are no different. You can feel comfortable in your bed when you say that the Havyner's were just a bad coincidence to die after their release, but I believe these sayings:

Quote:
“The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence."


No, the Black Eagles is not something that should be excused or accepted by any man or woman who adheres to values of truth and honor.

-Eran
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#44 - 2013-09-04 13:41:41 UTC
It's a stupid war. Part of the reason the Gallente militia is such a mess is that few of us give a **** any more. A good number of Federal citizens think that trying to bomb the Caldari into remaining in the Federation was an embarrassing episode to say the least.

Now that Caldari Prime's population is largely under State-aligned local government, Intaki space is the only remaining sticking point. There's no reason it can't be resolved through negotiation.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-09-04 14:48:47 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:
It's a stupid war. Part of the reason the Gallente militia is such a mess is that few of us give a **** any more. A good number of Federal citizens think that trying to bomb the Caldari into remaining in the Federation was an embarrassing episode to say the least.

Now that Caldari Prime's population is largely under State-aligned local government, Intaki space is the only remaining sticking point. There's no reason it can't be resolved through negotiation.


What's there to stick about? The Intaki don't want you in there (militarily or administratively), the State isn't claiming permanent rights to it, and Modu's + Ishukone have apparently worked out some sort of sweet deal with the locals.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#46 - 2013-09-04 15:32:00 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Andrea Okazon wrote:
It's a stupid war. Part of the reason the Gallente militia is such a mess is that few of us give a **** any more. A good number of Federal citizens think that trying to bomb the Caldari into remaining in the Federation was an embarrassing episode to say the least.

Now that Caldari Prime's population is largely under State-aligned local government, Intaki space is the only remaining sticking point. There's no reason it can't be resolved through negotiation.


What's there to stick about? The Intaki don't want you in there (militarily or administratively), the State isn't claiming permanent rights to it, and Modu's + Ishukone have apparently worked out some sort of sweet deal with the locals.


That's a point of view.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-09-04 19:27:02 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:


So instead of letting freedoms be taken away after fighting for them, you gave them up...yes, I ask you like you asked us; What good are freedoms if you can't defend them? And more to the point, why didn't you defend them?

People will try to destroy you regardless of where or who you are. They envy, despise, or seek to gain from you. This will never be avoided no matter who you are. However, this reality doesn't mean you should enact such principles that the Black Eagles push forth. For the Black Eagles to 'silence' (kill/torture) a mostly innocent civilian (they're not innocent simply because they got involved) since they seek to be a whistle-blower about the crimes and atrocities their Federation has committed, does not befit what I was told the Federal's seek to spread.

You can use just a few examples of extremists to push forth a campaign against any and all naysayers because they are being unpatriotic and are possible "threats" to your freedoms. At the same time you chip away at such freedoms because you have scared yourself so much you'd rather lose your freedoms than lose your life or welfare.

The Black Eagles are not the step in the right direction, even if they were labeled as an anti-terrorism, or anti-treason task force (though is that even much different than the way they're labeled now?).


We didn't give up our freedoms. I and every other Gallente citizen are living the same now as we did five years ago before the Black Eagles. All the freedoms we've had before are the same as we have now. Yes, the government is watching us a little more closely right now, but that's really it. Therefore, the Black Eagles are defending our freedoms. Not all of them are afraid, but I'd rather lose one than all of them.

You're getting into slippery slope things now I'm afraid. You're correct, we hypothetically could push forward a scenario you speak of but we aren't and we won't. There's no scares and purges like you would see in other nations. Speaking of scares and fear, if anything the Black Eagles have enabled us to sleep more soundly at night, knowing that the enemy at the gates is being kept out.

Quote:
Yes, the "wrongdoers" have much to fear. But should you say something, out of spite or anger, and it cause you to be labeled as a "wrongdoer," I feel your life will get much more....complicated.


We're not at the point where simply saying something could get you in trouble with the Black Eagles and considering that we haven't done so yet after several years of operation, it's probably unlikely. Obviously if someone says they are going to blow up the Senate station we would have a problem on our hands. But simple anti-government speech even if angry and inflammatory, probably isn't going to get the Black Eagles involved.

Quote:

In the end, the Black Eagles and CPD are no different. You can feel comfortable in your bed when you say that the Havyner's were just a bad coincidence to die after their release, but I believe these sayings:

Quote:
“The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence."


No, the Black Eagles is not something that should be excused or accepted by any man or woman who adheres to values of truth and honor.

-Eran


Correlation is not causation good sir. It's most likely a coincidence, and even if it wasn't, Ms. Kasaki did bring up a valid point that the reason why these secret police exist is because the suspects they are investigating are often able to work around the system one way or another and get away with it.

The Havyner's working around the system is possibility. With the suspects being a high ranking Naval officer (who could have connections to get out of trouble) and a celebrity (who always get out of trouble) they could of easily manipulated the system and forced the Black Eagles to take care of them in more sneaky ways.

Regardless, that is just as much speculation as the claim the Black Eagles simply took them out despite their innocence. There is no definitive way to prove or disprove either so it's best just to stick with the facts we have at hand.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#48 - 2013-09-04 20:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Andrea Okazon wrote:
It's a stupid war. Part of the reason the Gallente militia is such a mess is that few of us give a **** any more. A good number of Federal citizens think that trying to bomb the Caldari into remaining in the Federation was an embarrassing episode to say the least.

Now that Caldari Prime's population is largely under State-aligned local government, Intaki space is the only remaining sticking point. There's no reason it can't be resolved through negotiation.


What's there to stick about? The Intaki don't want you in there (militarily or administratively), the State isn't claiming permanent rights to it, and Modu's + Ishukone have apparently worked out some sort of sweet deal with the locals.


That's a point of view.


Well what's the other point of view?

I'm under the impression that the Intaki Assembly have the legal right to determine who manages shipping and security for that system. If the Federation has a problem with not being the ones chosen for that task, perhaps they might make use of that bloated Senate to change said legislation.

Katrina Oniseki
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#49 - 2013-09-04 23:13:52 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
(Points made)


Points duly noted.

-Eran
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