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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#941 - 2013-09-03 19:39:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:
These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.

It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?

It'd sound like this:

"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?"
"My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"

The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here.


I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale.

Now let's talk about what happens in reality.

Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do.

The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.*

Thus is the status quo preserved.

*A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change.



So change a 20 catalyst fleet to.... what... 37 of them?

That would have a serious impact on suicide ganking freighters.


We have already used 40 on freighters before now.
Dave stark
#942 - 2013-09-03 19:40:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him?



I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll.

You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me.

And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy.


oh please, you troll far more than i ever have.

better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative?



You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week.

Take your "oh please" elsewhere.

Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso.


you heard it here first folks; raising legitimate points is trolling.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#943 - 2013-09-03 19:48:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week.


If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish.


People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it.



But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes...


Yes it is.



Well, I think a statement like that is technically disengenuous as the 2 cannot compare. Suicide ganking would obviously have a huge gap in regards to frequency as well as gained loot not to mention the success rate. With all the time to prepare and get things rolling, a straight comparison would be a comparison of setup.

For instance... you cannot guarantee you can hit the ground rolling in either scenario. If you use the armor or shield channel for incursions, you will see some fleets literally take hours to form up, let alone the random sorting our the fleet requirements from the +/- of logi, t3, bs etc.

That could, compare to the research scouting of finding a loot pinata to smash. But I hardly doubt it.

I'm going to assume, with a chance of being wrong, you are comparing a 5bil payday from 1 kill that took 5 hours to organize, to an incursion fleet that's been "raiding" for 5 hours nonstop and counting all that cool LP(Loot fairy aside).

L4s are pretty constant as well in regards to income, and the levels of having solo versus fleet versus small gang is so varied, I don't think the comparison fits.

Apples are not oranges.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#944 - 2013-09-03 19:49:18 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.


What makes you so sure?

Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us.



Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#945 - 2013-09-03 19:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Dave Stark wrote:




but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.


Why? This thread is talking about freighters and jump freighters. This is not a thread about suicide ganking.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#946 - 2013-09-03 19:51:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him?



I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll.

You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me.

And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy.


oh please, you troll far more than i ever have.

better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative?



You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week.

Take your "oh please" elsewhere.

Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso.


you heard it here first folks; raising legitimate points is trolling.



So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#947 - 2013-09-03 19:51:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.


What makes you so sure?

Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us.



Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one.


Actually, 'we' are discussing only suicide ganks of freighters. No one knows what the hell you're discussing.
Dave stark
#948 - 2013-09-03 19:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:




but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.


Why? This thread is talking about freighters and jump freighters. This is not a thread about suicide ganking.


yes it is. read the OP, it's about 3 paragraphs of tears about suicide gankers ganking freighters and jfs.

this is why you're an obvious troll.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#949 - 2013-09-03 19:53:48 UTC
Lucy Hastmena wrote:
Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.
...SNIP FOR BREVITY...
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.


Even OP was originally discussing high sec suicide ganking. So why are you trying to take the thread off topic?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#950 - 2013-09-03 19:55:04 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.


What makes you so sure?

Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us.



Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one.


Actually, 'we' are discussing only suicide ganks of freighters. No one knows what the hell you're discussing.



That's awesome. Maybe we should go back to the beginning of the thread.

I'll start. First sentence. "Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.".

Now, I'll post the rest, for posterity.

"Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5.
17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion.
Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg).
The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.

Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.

Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself."

Please pay special attention to the last sentence. I'll underline it for you.

Strange isn't it... the OP actually saying you SHOULD be able to suicide gank, whereas you are talking about how we SHOULD be able to... suicide gank?

Fascinating.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#951 - 2013-09-03 19:57:40 UTC
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#952 - 2013-09-03 19:58:44 UTC
It's almost like the OP is talking about the validity of destroyers in this game and their output versus the inability of the freighter to tank them.

I'm sorry valid points and being in a discussion on point is considered being an "obvious troll" to you Dave. Perhaps you should work on being a bit more socialable.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#953 - 2013-09-03 19:59:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.



About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.

Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#954 - 2013-09-03 20:00:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.


Pretty much.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#955 - 2013-09-03 20:01:24 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.



About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.

Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.


I think you should re-read that post to make sure. It's pretty obvious what they're talking about. Being killed as a vaild target under wardec is not getting ganked.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#956 - 2013-09-03 20:01:25 UTC
"Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec."

This looks like the actual topic of this thread.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#957 - 2013-09-03 20:02:53 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.



About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.

Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.


I think you should re-read that post to make sure. It's pretty obvious what they're talking about. Being killed as a vaild target under wardec is not getting ganked.



Why isn't it? You don't need to die to Concord to kill a freighter (which is unnarmed anyways).

You only need superior numbers to gank something.

And I assure, I have reread the thread. Perhaps you should as well.

You guys spent more time mudslinging than actually discussing the topic. Stay on point.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#958 - 2013-09-03 20:09:57 UTC
Lucy Hastmena wrote:
Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.
Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5.
17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion.
Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg).
The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.

Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.

Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.



Ganking should be harder if you want to put value in nullsec alliances depending on the same highsec they so abhor. The abusing on the current game mechanics shows it is not "working as intended" since it is flawed from the start. The costs of corps, alliances, and coalitions should have a dynamic slope.

Whereas this might be better suited for a F&I discussion about npc corps and the validity of anyone being able to fly any ship... npc corp access to other ships should be looked at or even find a way to restrict a way for freighters to be classified as capital ships if they are to remain in highsec, or kick them out of highsec with the rest of the capitals.

This is deemed allowed by CCP for players to play this way, and that's fine... but if there's going to be an issue, it is because the code defining the ships needs to be reworked and looked at if you are going to have a sector of space be restrictive in what ships can or cannot enter.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#959 - 2013-09-03 20:14:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.



About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.

Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.


No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#960 - 2013-09-03 20:23:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.



About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.

Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.


No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned.



I suggest reading it again and please point out where the act of suicide ganking should be in question as to which should encourage you to debate it please. I can't find any mention whatsoever in saying they shouldn't happen (in fact the post said it SHOULD).

It does however, mention the survivability of freighters and jump freighters... sooo... once we can discount suicide ganks as being a legit way to destroy a freighter... what would be another way you can think of to kill a freighter in highsec with small little ships?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.